An Invitation to Enagic Dealers

I operate this blog as an independent voice in support of the entire water ionizer industry.  I don’t own shares in any company in the water ionizer industry and I don’t get paid for what I do. That’s a good thing because I suspect that this article could get me in a world of trouble otherwise. 

A quick summary of what I believe in and what I have been blogging about:

* I believe that water can and does play a huge role in our health

* My goal is to educate as many people as possible about the importance of drinking healthy water

* I’m a big supporter of the benefits of ionized water

*  I want the price of water ionizers to go down so that these remarkable machines can be affordable to as many people as possible.  My position on this issue has made me very unpopular with the owners of the various water companies.  In fact, I have been threatened by the owners of two different water ionizer companies this year.

* I’m really frustrated by the horrible job being done by all of the companies in the water ionizer industry (except Enagic) in terms of educating the public.    

* I can’t stand the deceptive marketing methods used by the owners of the companies of the water ionizer industry to convince the public to purchase their brands.  They should be focusing on what is important, which is educating the public.

* I’m a big supporter of the thousands of Enagic dealers who commit their time and energy to educating and helping others.  I’m not a supporter of the Enagic company itself, as it has saddled its dealers with outdated products that are grossly over priced.

The good news and bad news about being a Kangen dealer

The entire water ionizer industry in North America had been built on the efforts of Enagic dealers.  The dealers  have educated hundreds of thousands of people around the world.  They have also been responsible for tens of thousands of families drinking ionized water.  I don’t know how to express my gratitude other than to say thank you! 

The Enagic corporation has done a tremendous job of providing marketing tools to their dealers. They have created excellent videos and they hold conference calls and meetings to educate their dealers on selling techniques. The Enagic MLM system works! Most important of all, the Enagic machines work. There is no other possible explanation why Kangen dealers are so dedicated to sharing their knowledge with others. Money earned from commissions can be a good motivator, but the passion exhibited by Enagic dealers comes from experiencing a truth that has nothing to do with money.

The unrealized potential of Kangen dealers

Kangen dealers have the potential to change the world and we need to encourage them to continue with their incredible efforts. 

Instead of receiving encouragement, Kangen dealers are faced with a constant barrage of negative feedback from an industry that simply wants to feed off the hard work done by the Enagic dealers.

Kangen dealers should have the newest and best products available to them. 

Instead of being able to offer state-of-the-art products, Kangen dealers are forced to sell antiquated equipment that doesn’t meet the standards of machines offered by many other companies.

Kangen dealers should be able to offer competitively priced products that allow their efforts and passion to make it an easy choice for potential customers to choose to deal with them.  

If Kangen dealers had the proper tools to work with, it would be exciting to watch their progress.  

An Invitation to all Kangen Dealers

You are changing the world one person at a time, but you can do more.   You just need better tools.

I believe that the ultimate goal for those of us in the industry that care about helping others, is to get as many people as possible to drink ionizer water. In order to get more people drinking ionized water, the price of the machines has to come down. 

If you have been promoting Enagic machines, you know how difficult it is to get someone to spend $4,000 on a water ionizer.  You may have lost dozens if not hundreds of sales because the price tag is too high.  The most frustrating part of being an Enagic dealer is that many people that should be dealing with you because of your knowledge and effort end up dealing with a competitor that offers their products for half the cost or less.

I challenge all Enagic dealers to make the effort to learn about the other great machines available in the industry.  In order to do this, you may have to disregard information that you have believed since you first started with Enagic. This may not be easy to do, as old habits die hard.  I can assure you that other machines on the market are as good or better than Enagic, but it is up to you to find out for yourself. 

I wish that I could tell you that it is easy to learn the truth about different companies, their products, and their business practices, but is not as easy as you might think.  For instance, every company you contact will tell you that they are the best.  Many will also resort to criticizing other companies in an effort to win you over. Therefore, it will be very difficult to find out the truth, which may leave you feeling like it is just better to stick with your current situation.  Don’t get frustrated, and don’t give up.  The industry needs you, and the effort will be worth it. 

If you think that it might be worthwhile for you to look at other products, but you don’t know where to begin, send me a message.  I would be happy to help you get started with the education process and to direct you to people that have earned my trust.  Don’t worry about me trying to recruit you, as I’m not in the business.  I have helped several Enagic dealers from levels newbies to 6A veterans get hooked up with great people representing different companies.  I don’t care which brand or company you choose, as long as you are sharing your knowledge with others.

The opinions expressed in this article are those of the author and are not meant as medical advice.  Always seek the advice of your health care professional for health related issues.

179 Responses to An Invitation to Enagic Dealers

  1. Well said.

    • So what did the man tell you about the relationship between Enagic & Sanastec? That is a question that has been high on my list for some time as well.

      • Hi GR:

        I assume your question was directed to Gabe. I would like to hear the answer to that question as well.

      • Hey G R,

        I never did get an answer for that one. I’ve asked him 2 more times if he will help find answers and then post them on the Enagic website, but I’m getting nothing in return.

        I also sent him a handful of additional inappropriate calls/websites that were emailed to me from ex-Enagic dealers or competing companies after my initial post.

        Again…no response.

        Romi Sink had a pretty good summary on her blog a while back. Feel free to check it out at http://www.waterionizerauthority.com/sanastecenagic-whats-the-deal/

        • Hi Gabe:

          I hope you give you Mr. Jolley a little more time before condemning him. But then again, he managed to get back to you in one day to threaten you. If Gavin’s information about how Enagic responds to compliance issues is corrrect, I expect you will be waiting a very long time for a response from him. Funny how his desire to shut you down over providing a conversation with his staff member was such a high priority, but he won’t get back to you about physical evidence that you provided about factual indiscretions of his dealers.

          Good find on Senastec. Romi is to be congratulated for her efforts.

        • Hi Gavin:

          Does the DSA have any teeth?

      • I agree with Gabe that Romi Sink has posted the best research on Enagic/Sanastech. I also recommend calling the owner of http://www.thinkalkaline.com [909-468-0999] or even call Stan Essecson who is a big time Enagic dealer who is listed as a Sanastec dealer [YNR Marketing] on the Think Alkaline web site. He’ll try to sell you an Enagic unit instead, but he will also tell you the truth about the relationship. 949-218-9673

        • Hi Cathy:

          Thanks for the info. I personally don’t have much interest in the Sanastec/Enagic feud. From what I can see, Mr. Oshiro sees that the Enagic pricing “house of cards” has a limited shelf life and he is just being intelligent by establishing a direct marketing arm.

          I find it funny that we are seeing IonLife merged into the IonWays MLM system and Tyent moving towards the Evontis MLM system at the same time that the master, Mr. Oshiro, is moving the other way. I have to admire the man.

  2. Your article is good. I guess, I will start drinking ionized water now.

    • Hi Tyent USA Affiliate:

      Welcome to the blog. You are free to promote your products on the blog, just like everyone else. However, just like everyone else, your posts are subject to my BS meter.

      Your comment ” I guess I will start drinking ionized water” is silly as it infers that you are just considering drinking ionized water for the first time. You are working with one of the biggest water ionizer companies in America. When I checked out the web address that you provided, I was directed to a Tyent promotional website populated by a handful of articles that essentially say “Tyent is Great”. The site doesn’t have any contact information. Therefore, you have thrown together a Tyent promo site and hope to sit back and make a quick buck off this blog. Good luck with that!

      Tyent makes good machines. Don’t be afraid to promote your company with honesty and pride.

  3. HI Rob,
    While most of your comments I have read are spot on, I need to clarify something about filtration… first off, many contaminants or things you don’t want ARE in fact filtered from the water by our company’s filtration, we even offer a .01 micron (one one-hundredth of a micron!) filter as an option that is the same grade of filtration as used in kidney dialysis. I have lab documents showing some pretty impressive results using our standard filter, which is .1 micron (one tenth of a mocron), and will be glad to provide more info on request. We have also recently introduced a Biostone Plus filter with catalytic carbon which is designed to remove chloramines, I do not believe any of my competitors have yet to offer this as an onboard, internal filter…

    Now, here is some REALLY big news, we are introducing a whole new technology for prefiltering the water down to ZERO TDS this month, which is totaly purification. It makes no waste water like Reverse Osmosis, which can waste up to 5 gallons of water to make one of drinking water, which is a HUGE environmentally friendly thing. It will work with relatively low pressure water, so it can be used in areas where people use cisterns and such, meaning we can provide a means to clean up water in some pretty primitive places… It can be remineralized with just the stuff you want in the water, then run to an ionizer, creating absolutely clean, ionized alkaline mineral water… it also can be used with a remineralization option alone, to make healthy mineral rich and pure drinking water, for those who do not want the ionized results. Price is going to be somewhere in the 400-600 range, and will be announced shortly, hopefully this month.

    • Hi Gavin:

      The Jupiter/Ionways Biostone filter is excellent. In fact, I would say it is the best single filter in the industry. I would dispute the claims that Jupiter makes about removing so many things from the water. I have spent a lot of time studying fluoride, chloramines, THMs, VOCs etc. I would have to personally witness the testing procedure to test the before and after results from both a new and partially used and nearly fully used filter before I would believe the claims.

      I look forward to seeing the new Jupiter filtrations system. Is it a nano based system sililar to what Chanson offers?

      Congratulations on all the hard work you have done in helping building awareness of the industry. I admire your passion and effort. We need more people like you in the industry. If I can ever help you and your efforts in any way, let me know, as I would be happy to contribute.

  4. ionizersreviewed.com is funded and operated by tyent.

    rob gray is partners with joe bocutti.

    they give themselves “ionizer of the year” awards…

    I find this type of business practice reprehensible, personally.

    I would not bet on their being in business in five years, people who abuse customers in this manner are usually not around that long.

    • Hi Gavin:

      It seems like you have a deep grudge against Tyent. I can’t disagree with anything you have said other than the life expectancy of Tyent. I expect that Tyent will clean up its act as more pressure is put on the company. The owner of Tyent is a bright young man who has great marketing skills and his company produces good products. Hopefully he will eventually come to the realization that helping people get healthy is the real reward.

      • Gavin is with Jupiter/IonWays … but I agree with his assessment of Tyent and their ethics.

        • Hi Marissa:

          I met Gavin recently in California on a weekend getaway (Newport Beach and Laguna Beach are wonderful for anyone that cares). He is a good guy who is interested in helping others. The industry needs more people like Gavin.

  5. Hey what a brilliant post. I have been searching for this kind of post for the past week. Thank you very much and will look for more postings from you.

  6. Hello Rob,

    I am an Enagic distributor.

    Putting price aside for now, could you please explain to me the specific reasons why you think that Enagic’s units are not the very best in the industry?

    In your opinion, “why” are some other machines “superior”???

    Lastly, I was curious if you ever been to Enagic’s factory in Osaka, Japan?

    Thanks,

    Juli

    • Hi Juli:

      Thanks for leaving a comment.

      I love Enagic dealers because they are passionate, hard working people who are truly interested in helping others. Enagic also provides their dealers with by far the best marketing materials in the industry.

      I don’t love Enagic machines. The machines are made with 14 year old technology, so they are far behind the times in terms of technology and ease of use. In addition, the Enagic machines require chemical additives (a combination of salt and bleach) to achieve high pH and low pH levels. Another factor that nobody seems to talk about is the fact that the platinum coating on the Enagic plates erodes fast because of the huge amount of power that transfers across the plates. Newer technology in other machines limits the amount of power across the plates to the exact amount of power needed to achieve the desired results, which means the platinum has a much longer life.

      If Enagic dropped the price of the SD501 by $1000 before introducing it to their MLM system, which they could easily do, it would help. To make the pricing more competitive, I’m sure the dealers would also agree to take less from each level. Therefore, it would not take much to drive the price down to $2,000 per machine. Imagine how much more success you would have if the SD501 were $2,000. Unfortunately, even at $2,000, the SD501 would be overpriced if Enagic doesn’t update and upgrade their machines.

      Please don’t get discouraged by what I have to say. The industry needs you and other Enagic dealers to help spread the word. Enagic dealers need to band together and force Enagic to provide better machines at better prices. If Enagic continues to refuse to budge on their pricing and technology, the Enagic brand will not survive for long.

      I recommend that every Enagic dealer find lower cost alternatives to provide for customers that don’t want to pay $4,000 for a machine. There are lots of alternatives to choose from that will do a great job for a lot less money, and still pay out a hefty commission.

      The real goal is to educate people and get them drinking the water. All of you Enagic dealers know what to do.

      • Hi Rob,

        Thanks for your reply.

        You state that Enagic’s technology is 14 years old (I assume you’re speaking about the use of transformers), but you don’t give me specific reasons why the competition’s “newer” technology is superior. I’m seeking definitive justifications from you as to why you find “some” of the units manufactured by Enagic’s competitors produce higher quality ionized water. And please, compare these units head to head with Enagic’s SD501…..our company’s best model for the home.

        In order for an electrolysis generator to produce 2.7pH or below strong acidic water (hypochlorous acid) and 11.0pH and higher strong alkaline water (sodium hydroxide) a sodium chloride based solution has to be added to the machine. Are you familiar with the larger, industrial electrolyzed water units that are now being sold to many hotels, restaurants and other businesses here in the U.S.? They ALL add a sodium solution to their units, so their machines can produce the strong acidic water for disinfecting and the strong alkaline water for cleaning and degreasing. How can you produce hypochlorous acid and sodium hydroxide without the addition of sodium chloride??? It’s impossible from a scientific and chemistry standpoint. Are you trying to claim that there are units out there on the market that don’t use sodium chloride and yet can produce these two waters? If so…..how can it be done??? Do you have the studies like we do at Enagic proving that our strong acidic water can kill bacteria in less than 30 seconds? The only way for consumers to use these two waters in their home for a large variety of health and environmental reasons is to purchase an Enagic unit or a unit from another company that uses a sodium additive.

        Also, what evidence do you have that the platinum on the plates inside an Enagic unit erodes quickly? Have you ever been to Enagic’s corporate office in Torrance, California? Have you seen the 5 machines they have in their lobby that run all day long (9 to 5), 6 days a week, so people can come to the office and fill up containers of free water? Most times, there is a line out the door as people wait to get their water. What other machines in the industry have this type of durability and could hold up to this type of heavy use without shutting off or overheating? That would be a test I’d like to see! Perhaps the type or quality of platinum used in other units on the market or the way it is applied to the plates would erode, but as far as I know, Enagic has yet to have any problems with platinum erosion. Please substantiate your claim for me.

        I’d like to have a pricing discussion with you as well, but let’s first address the issues above before we move on to that topic. You said there are better machines on the market than the SD501, so I’d like to see your proof. You have challenged us Enagic distributors to learn about the other great machines on the market, so I am asking you to “educate” me with the facts to back up your statements and claims.

        I’m privy to the sales figures at Enagic and I can only tell you that we are still growing and growing strong! Our largest growth period has also taken place during a terrible downturn in the economy. I’m quite confident that when the economy gets moving again, our sales will increase at an even faster rate. People will pay $3,980 for an SD501 if they believe it is the very best unit in the industry. It’s our job as distributors to show them that it is! People will also pay for results…..that’s why we share water with people, so they can try it before they buy it. If they simply can’t afford an SD501, we have units starting at $1,280 to better fit their budget as well as a no interest, no credit turn down financing program through Enagic to make things even easier.

        Lastly, you didn’t answer my last question in my previous post…..have you ever taken a tour of Enagic’s factory in Osaka, Japan?

        I look forward to your reply and information.

        Thanks,

        Juli

        • Hi Juli:

          This is the abbreviated version of a much longer and much more detailed response, and it is still far too long. I really need to get a real job!

          The best guy to talk to in the industry about acidic water is Ronnie Ruiz at Chanson. His machines are the best acid producers in the industry. Ronnie has documentation from certified testing facilities proving that the water produced from his machines do produce legal disifecting water without using the salt or bleach that the Enagic machine requires. I’m sure Ronnie would be happy to provide details as he has provided me with the documentation in the past. I have also tested water with a pH under 2.7 from the Chanson Miracle and VS70 and the Tyent Turbo and the EOS Platinum many times

          You say you are not aware of Enagic plates eroding. That may be true, but you have not done enough homework. Pictures of eroded Enagic plates are available if you search for them. Picutures of Enagic plates under 5000 magnification are also available that show that you can see the titanium through the platinum. Ask the Enagic owners, or better still, ask the Toyo engineers who make the Enagic machines how long their plates last, and how do they know when to change them. I believe Enagic offers to replace worn out plates for $600, but they can’t tell when they will wear out.

          I will be producing unbiased videos of my testing of various types of water ionizers. I won’t bother video taping the PH/ORP testing that you see on the “paid” review sites, because the results are too easy to manipulate. In fact, the results vary from test to test using the same machines and the same equipement if you test over different times of the day and over different days. The reason for this is that the source water plays a huge role in the performance of the machines. I will be showing people about how to operate the machines and giving my opinions about the features and ease of operation. All of the machines work well and produce water that is great for your health. People don’t care, or shouldn’t care about how high or low the pH levels can go and how low the ORP can go. The important issue should be whether the water works, and obtaining the best value.

          If you want to learn about the other machines, go and test them without biased pre-conceived ideas. You are welcome to visit my lab in Canada, or better still, go to Korea and Taiwan, and Japan and visit the manufacturing and testing facilities. Talk to the engineers and quality assurance people. I visited several factories in South Korea and it was well worth the trip.

          I’m happy for you and Enagic that you are doing well. I agree that the Enagic SD501 is a bargain at $3,980. However, for those that want better value, there are other machines available that will produce the same or better results as the SD501 for about 35% of the cost of the SD501. It doesn’t matter to me what machines people choose, or what they pay, as long as they drink the water. My function is to provide information, and let people decide for themselves. Nobody has the right to say what others should choose.

          I’m not here to bash Enagic. In fact, I’m grateful for their efforts over the past six years to educate people about the water. However, the evidence simply doesn’t support the many Enagic claims that their electrolysis is any better than anyone else’s electrolysis. In fact, the claims are no different than claiming that their gravity is better than anyone else’s gravity. Anyone that studies the machines knows that the output of the machines depends upon the condition of the source water, the amount of time that the water is in contact with the plates, and the amount of power that is run across the plates. When it comes to power and plate quantity and size, many of the other machines have Enagic covered and then some.

          I have read and heard hundreds of incredible claims made by Enagic dealers over the years. Fortunately my BS metre has become finely tuned and the claims just don’t pass the test. To answer your final question, no, I haven’t visited the Toyo plant that manufactures the machines for the Enagic marketing company. I don’t need to, as I have visited other plants and have taken the time to learn how the machines work.

  7. Give ’em heaps, Rob!
    ya gotta laugh.

    • Don’t mean to beat up on anyone, but the propaganda over the years gets to be a bit much.

      • Hi Rob,

        I’m sorry to have to tell you, but I don’t feel “beat up” by you. You may be throwing punches, but you’re catching all air at the moment. You still seem to rely on making very general statements without “detailed” supportive facts.

        If Ronnie Ruiz at Chanson is your “best guy in the industry”, then I’m afraid you’re on very shaky ground. Are you talking about the same Ronnie Ruiz that slams Enagic and their “MLM” marketing system on his “Chanson” website, but through another of his websites, http://www.healingwatermachines.com, he and his wife Nedalee clearly also sell the IonWays Melody/Isis ionizer! It looks like Ronnie and his wife are active distributors with Ionways……an established MLM company. Seems like Ronnie is playing both sides of the fence here…..MLM is a bad thing when it comes to promoting Chanson, but they don’t seem to have any problems with MLM marketing when it comes to selling IonWays products and putting money in their pockets now does it???

        I would say that Ronnie’s “credibility” doesn’t hold much water based on the way he practices business, so any reference to him or his “opinions” has no merit in my eyes……nor should it to people looking to spend their hard-earned money on a quality product.

        So, did Ronnie also take the “supposed” pictures of Enagic’s eroding plates??? If not, who took these pictures that are so easily found on the internet? You have my e-mail……send them to me if you’d like, but I’m pretty sure the source will probably have the same credibility as good ‘ole Ronnie. I’m guessing that the pictures were probably taken by one of our “honest” competitors or a “disgruntled” former Enagic customer who now just “happens” to be promoting and selling another unit.

        Are you also saying that other company’s plates (especially the companies that you “claim” produce superior units to the SD501), do not erode and will last forever? If not, then how long will they last…..10 years, 20 years, longer? How do you know? All plates from any machine will eventually erode to a degree and need to be replaced or a new machine purchased. Again Rob…..give me some specific facts! Why do you think the plates from other companies are higher in quality versus Enagic’s? You make a lot of “claims”, but you don’t back them up! You offered to educate me, but just saying Enagic’s plates erode without saying why or why other plates are better doesn’t offer much in the area of higher learning.

        In your upcoming videos, I would suggest testing the durability of the units by turning them all on and seeing how long they run before shutting down or overheating. I doubt any will stand up to the SD501. You mentioned that you are not going to test the ORP, but instead of conducting the “standard” ORP test, which can be found on several websites on the internet and I agree, can be totally manipulated, I suggest you take each ionizer run the water continuously and check the ORP and pH levels at 1 minute, 3 minute, 5 minute and 10 minute intervals. Let’s see how the ORP and pH levels change over that time period. I think you will be amazed to see that nothing comes close to the consistency of the SD501. Now that’s a true way to test the performance, consistency and durability of a unit!

        I would also like to see you open the backs of all the machines, so people can “look under the hood”. If you want to go further, open up the water cells (if you can in some models without breaking the water cell!) and compare the plates in terms of construction, durability and overall size. Compare the electrodes as well. You should also compare all of the exterior hoses and all other components inside the unit. Would you believe that one model in particular (in fact one of the “newer” units just mentioned recently on your blog…..sounds like an old Dean Martin tune) actually uses “wire caps” to connect the wires inside the unit!!! I’ve seen it with my own eyes! I can’t imagine that being too safe!!!

        By the way, I and some other distributors I know have tested other units on the market. We’ve actually taken them apart and taken pictures of the “insides” of the units for people to see. It’s funny how Enagic distributors will gladly show pictures of our water cells and our individual plates, but it’s almost impossible to see pictures of water cells and plates on the websites of our competitors……especially in comparison to ours! They love to bash us with words, but to most people……”seeing” is believing!

        I plan on visiting our factory in Osaka sometime next year. Several of my fellow distributors went this year, so I received many first-hand accounts of how impressive the factory is and how each step of the manufacturing process takes place under very strict quality control procedures. It’s no wonder we have three ISO certifications (one for medical device manufacturing – ISO 13485) from Det Norske Veritas……a “reputable” and “legitimate” ISO organization and who, along with Lloyd’s of London and the American Bureau of Shipping is one of the top three companies in the classification society business. If you haven’t been to our factory yet, you can at least take a video tour on our corporate website. However, if you “really” want to inform people based on fact, you should go and tour our plant someday. Until then, I’d say it’s unwise for you to try to compare other factories to Enagic’s if you’ve seen theirs, but not ours. By the way, it is “our” factory…..not Toyo’s. If you haven’t seen pictures, it’s painted in the trademark Enagic blue with our company logo on the outside of the building. If you want to see the pictures, I will gladly send them to you. We manufacture our own units at our own factory, so please don’t mislead people……stay with the facts. You should also know that Enagic merged with Toyo Aitex (basically acquired them) back in October of 2001.

        Again, towards the end of your post, you state that there are machines that produce better results than the SD501 for about 35% of the cost, but you don’t state what machines nor give any specific reasons as to why they are better! You started this section in your blog as an “Invitation to Enagic Dealers”, but simply making unsubstantiated claims “there are better machines for less money” or “Enagic’s plates erode” without giving any specific facts or hard proof isn’t going to convince many people of anything at all.

        I do agree that the output of the machine depends on the source water, the amount of time that the water is in contact with the plates, and the amount of power that is run across the plates. That being said, what machine in the industry has greater solid plate surface area than the SD501 (and please don’t give me that nonsense that a “screen” with holes in it has more surface area than a solid plate) and more “non-pulsing” (not on/off), “steady” power/wattage hitting the plates? Also, what evidence do you have that the quality of other plates exceeds the Enagic electroplating process and the grade of platinum and 99.99% pure titanium we use on our plates?

        Just getting warmed up,

        Juli

        • Hi Juli:

          I don’t like Ronnie Ruiz as a person because he “did me dirty” as the expression goes, and he refuses to man up and do the right thing. However, he works hard at building awareness and the Chanson products produce disinfectant grade acid water and alkaline drinking water that is beneficial to human health. Nobody cares about what you or I think about the man, just like nobody cares about the “energizer bunny” durability of your machines. People just want to know that the machines work and that they are getting good value.

          I have taken apart many different machines available in the industry including yours. I will be making unbiased videos of all the machines in the near future and putting them on this site. People will be able to see what they are buying and how the machine works, and they will get my analysis of the machine instead of fake tests that can be easily manipulated.

          I believe you when you say you are just getting warmed up. I have had lots of experience with passionate Enagic dealers. I love your passion, but your bias towards Enagic and against other manufacturers completely blows away your credibility.

          Your vindictive comments towards Ronnie Ruiz provides insight into Enagic’s actions towards others. Enagic continues to provide terrible moral and ethical examples that runs though your entire system. Your dealers believe whatever they are told because they are good people and they know the machines work. They assume that the information that they are fed by your company must be true because they are honest people who wouldn’t intentionally lie to anyone. Your dealers care about helping others and they just can’t bring themselves to face the fact that they are being fed BS by the company that they love so much. I have heard more lies and BS out of Enagic dealers than all the dealers of all the other companies combined, but I don’t hold the dealers at fault because they don’t know any better.

          Enagic needs to stop spreading BS to justify the high price of the SD501. You should know, if you don’t already, that there are only a couple of hundred dollars of actual parts in an Enagic machine. Of course there has to be a labour component and a manufacturing profit built into the machine, but the machines that leave the factory are not worth more than $500, and probably a lot less.

          I created this blog to educate others, to provide honest unbiased advice, and to illuminate what I believe to be unethical business practices of players that hurt the water ionizer industry. Please don’t get me started on Enagic because I can promise you that you won’t like the fallout.

          I have no problem with you promoting ionized water, and I have no problem with you being a cheerleader for Enagic. However, my BS metre is finely tuned, and any unsubstantiated claims, or attacks on others in the industry will be challenged.

          If you want a fight girl, then you are entitled to fight. However, you had better be prepared to have your company fully exposed in terms of their costs and profit margins. You will also get to read about the problems that people have had and continue to experienced with the Enagic machines and service. Your statements and my rebuttals will be scrutinized not only by me, but by the thousands of people who now follow this blog. In the past, Enagic has steamrolled over anyone that questions the company in any way. I can assure you that is no longer the case, as I have nothing to lose. I also have the backing of every company or dealer who has ever been harmed by Enagic attacks, and believe me, the number is huge. I can’t imagine your fellow Enagic dealers would want you to get into a p*ssing match with me, but you are welcome to try.

          I would rather not air out the Enagic dirty laundry in public because it doesn’t serve any useful purpose. I would rather focus my efforts on supporting Enagic dealers so that they don’t get disgusted and leave the industry. The industry and our society needs the passion and energy of the Enagic dealers. I just hope Enagic introduces new products at competitive prices before it is too late and all of its loyal dealers go elsewhere.

          • Hi Rob,

            I have read some of your posts as well as people’s replies to them and I noticed that you said this is an unbiased blog. In your about me section you stated that you were the past President of Tyent Canada. Doesn’t that make you biased? In my eyes, the fact that you were employed by Tyent at one time gives you a bias, whether it be good or bad toward them. I mean, having been the former President, I’m sure you were privy to certain information. Don’t get me wrong, I think what you are doing here may be of great service to people, but I don’t feel as though you should say that it is unbiased.

            That being said, I also don’t think that the internet is a very good resource for people researching something as important as a water ionizer. My reason for feeling this way is because anyone that has a website or blog can say anything that they want to, whether it is true or not. So my advice for someone who is interested in getting a water ionizer, is to do their own, hands on research and decide what best unit for them would be, instead of relying on someone else’s views.

            I am not interested in having a debate with you about it nor will I dignify a challenge by you. I just wanted to state how I feel and how others may feel when they read your blog.

          • Hi Don:

            Thanks for your comments. You are fully justified in questioning my past connection to Tyent and whether or not my opinions are biased. In fact, I’m the one that gave your post the “thumbs up” rating, which is the first time I have ever voted on a comment.

            You are naturally correct in assuming that all experiences in life combine to form one’s judgement about any subject.

            I agree with you that the internet can be a scary place when it comes to learning about things. The water ionizer industry provides a perfect example of how frustrating the internet can be, as you can witness all kinds of bashing and inappropriate claims from the various participants. I also agree that people should do their own homework. The problem is: how does someone go about it? Every website about water ionizers that I have visited has an angle that attempts to direct the reader to purchase their specific product. The so called “independent review” sites are the sneakiest advertisers of all.

            I put up this blog because I have time now that I’m retired. I wish that I had the insight that I do now when I got started. I don’t sell any units and I don’t endorse any companies or brands. People are looking for information, not gossip.

            I did work as the president of Tyent Canada in the past. I sold a lot of machines for Tyent. I can tell you with a clear conscience that I like Tyent’s machines because they work and they are reliable. I can also tell you with the same clear conscience that many other machines work as well.

            I chose to stop working with Tyent for many reasons. The main reason I left Tyent was due to my concern for the moral and ethical standards by which the company conducted its business. I’m not saying I’m right and Tyent was wrong. There were just significant differences between my goals and their goals. I’m living my dream now and I couldn’t do that when I was with Tyent.

            Does this make me biased? I guess it does, but I can assure you that I feel the same way about a number of Tyent’s competitors as well. For that matter, I don’t care for the behaviour of most of owners in the water ionizer industry. That doesn’t change the fact that their machines work, which is the only thing that people care about.

            I think all of the water ionizers on the market are overpriced…some more than others. I know what the machines cost, and I promise you that the prices of all the brands could be lower. As the industry matures, we will see lower prices.

            Hopefully we will see more companies that operate like Enagic in terms of investing in educating the public. I love what Enagic has done and every single person working in the water ionizer industry should be grateful for Enagic. I expect the eventual winners will recognize the need for lower prices to gain broad public acceptance, and the need to invest in educating the public about the benefits of alkaline water. Right now, it seems that the consumer has a choice of one or the other.

        • Juli, I once wrote and spoke the same words as you. I was just as impassioned about the mythology of Enagic. Premier Parnters are MASTERS at spinning the truth into myths, giving half the story, and making Mr. O seem like God. But I learned from people within the company – not distributors – a lot of the facts. I asked a LOT of questions … when I didn’t get a straight answer, I began to wonder. For me it started when I ran into a Sanastech web site selling kangen water ionizers for half the price … the same technology as the DX and the same parent company. The history of that is really interesting, and even though Oshiro promised no more marketin gin the US … it still goes on. In fact, one of the premier distributors of marketing brochures, Stan E. (formerly enagicinfo.com) is listed as a distributor of these machines!

          Anyway, I digress. First of all, Enagic’s SD 501 is not “superman”. I have seen multiple problems with it among the over 100 machines that I sold while an Enagic distributor, especially in hard water areas, but also where water is both soft (low mineral content) and highly alkaline from natural ash or lye deposits. The performance is simply not consistent. Other machines have similar problems under these conditions – source water is critical for performance. (Were you ever taught that? I wasn’t. But I’ve been around for three years, and they’ve only recently admitted there’s a problem and offered some solutions.) I have also seen the photos of deteriorated plates from a relatively young SD501, and it was not from Ron Ruiz. If you are so close to the Torrance HQ, I challenge you to go there and ask if you can visit the part of the office where they are taking machines apart and cleaning them. It’ll gross you out. Plate deterioration is why Dr. Hayashi (Father of Water Ionizers) now says ionized water is dirty water, and he does NOT recommend it.

          You can’t say Enagic plates never deteriorate because it depends on how the machine is used. If you ask Enagic technicians, as I did, if making loads of 2.5 with highly corrosive salt/chlorine solution will cause the plates to wear faster, they will tell you that they do. The problem with this, as with ALL brands, is how do you know? How will you know if the plates are worn? Do you test your pH and ORP regularly? Do you clean frequently … gone are the days when we were advised to clean once a year!

          By the way, I am NOT a fan of mesh plates. Have had too many conversations with metallurgical engineers … and no company I spoke to would tell me the alloy composition of the titanium. If it is exposed, the other metals (Cu, Ni. Pb, ??? Who knows?) can leach into the water in ppb … but over time you might get a healthy (or unhealthy) dose. So I do prefer solid plates.

          The only thing that Enagic MIGHT be able to substantiate (but I have not seen proof) is that the stronger electrical charge results in more complete ionization and makes the water stable longer or creates hexagonal molecular structures. (Watch out, though. That’s trademarked/patented and someone’s legal department will be on your case.) But how do you prove it? Got an electron microscope anyone?

          My dear friends (they still are my friends, thankfully) in Enagic also claim that it produces free hydrogen and other machines don’t, proving it by clicking their bic as the water is produced. Well, my new machine from Vollara does the same with one disk and less power … AND it’s irrelevant since the reason the lighter is flicking is because the hydrogen is going into the air NOT the water.

          Finally, I loved the SD 501, the Junior, and the SUNUS. I still own 3 SD 501s and 2 SUNUS units – I let my friends and prospects borrow them whenever they need. I got great results when I lived where I had decently mineralized well water, and terrible results when we moved where water as low mineral content and high pH. The machines DO NOT operate consistently under all conditions, and Enagic customer support/tech support was incapable of solving the problems we experienced.

          Juli, when you open your eyes and ask for the facts, don’t be surprised what you will find out. In my opinion, the Enagic is a great ionizer with typical problems experienced by all … but no better. If it lasts a bit longer, great, but is it worth the price difference if that price prevents people from taking this major step to improve their health? I agree with Rob’s position that Enagic could do a lot to lower the price if the distributor leadership wasn’t so greedy. Do you really need to make $1800+ when you sell a machine? Does it make you feel happy to know your upline is making that much and didn’t do squat to help you make the sale? I know I felt guilty … and my most aware customers figured out pretty quick what the machine was ‘worth’ as soon as they understood the comp plan. To find out what it’s worth, just look at Craig’s List and E-bay. They are selling SD501s for about $2K.

          Finally, for every one buyer I sold to, I had at least 100 who couldn’t possibly afford to invest $4000 on a water ionizer. I was constantly fighting the internet … people would quickly learn that other established brands were less … especially when they found machines made by Sanastec or Toyo engineers ( the IE Series). I have no problem with my decision to market options that are far more affordable and perform equally well. If they don’t last as long, OK, but so what? In 5 years, there will again be new and improved technology in water ionizing that the smart marketers will be representing while Enagic faithful keep selling that old wood and wire mousetrap.

          • Wow. Thanks for contributing Cameron. Your insight is a welcome addition.

            Just curious. Have you stayed in the ionizer stream only, or have you now added air and laundry as well?

          • Hi Gabe:

            You Vollara guys can talk amongst yourselves as I don’t have any input. I’m sure the readers would like to know what Vollara is all about.

          • I’m an ionizer guy who’s chosen to market Vollara…not a Vollara guy. :) As long as a dealer from any company is honest, straightforward and understands all models work, then I’ll support and encourage them.

            I can’t speak for Cameron. Most of my thoughts on why Vollara are here. http://wearewhatweabsorb.com/?page_id=982. The biggest reason was the variety of solutions offered within other areas I was already knowledgeable in. If a client is interested in ionized water, they are naturally interested in doing laundry without detergent, breathing clean air or recycling electricity. It just fits. When it does, I can make a great deal for them on a package.

    • This is a great lesson in how to effectively (or NOT) differentiate your product in a competitive market. Hype doesn’t work very well any more when people can access different points of view with the point of a mouse.

      I know one Enagic 6A who quite honestly told me she doesn’t LET her prospects go on the web for information (although I don’t know how she keeps them from it.) She said that once they do, she loses them because the find all this ‘negative’ information about the company and the pricing.

      Hint, hint.

  8. Hi Rob,

    Interesting exchange between you and Juli…I look forward to reading her reply. My experience with a local Enagic dealer was about the same; good intentions, plenty of confidence and passion, but a little light on the facts.

    Thank you for all the great information your provided in your response to my last post…of course you’ve piqued my interest as far as your comments concerning the head of Chanson ionizers here in the US. I did read one of your other posts in which you elaborated; feel free to reveal as much (or as little) of any other details as you like.

    Quickly about me: I’m male, 55, in Augusta Ga. and I’m a manager at New Life Natural Foods. -I had a customer inquiry yesterday concerning some water that someone attempted to sell her, to the tune of $60.00 a gallon! She was told the water was ‘electrified’, so she assumed it was just ionized water. She proceeded to come to our store (she had contacted me by phone) and purchase 4 gallons of our ionized water (from a Chanson Miracle) at $5.00 a gallon ‘in protest’, as she said. What would be your opinion as to what sort of water this might be? Personally I feel that water from an ionizer is as good as it gets, but I’m always open to anything new that may come along.

    Once again, thank you for your time and your efforts here. I’ve had a chance to look around your site and I continue to be impressed.
    -Terry

    • Hi Terry:

      Thanks for coming by again. Comments are always welcome.

      I love Enagic reps. I wish there were more of them because they are by far the best source of getting information about the machines out to the public. Enagic reps are good people who mean well. They just need unbiased information so that they can make the right decisions for themselves and the people that they serve. My hope is that every Enagic rep finds their way to this blog at some point, and that they will take the time to learn without getting mad or defensive. I have deep respect for their efforts, and I believe that if they are armed with accurate information, they can be even more effective in helping change the world.

      I’m in the building bridges mode these days. People make mistakes when they get greedy, but that doesn’t make them bad people. The head of Chanson is the States is the hardest working guy in the industry and I prefer to emphasize his strengths. I have information that would create enormous public relations damage to a number of the water ionizer companies in the States, but the industry needs their continued efforts. There are very powerful companies out there that need water ionizers to fail, so we have to support anyone that is spreading the word. I just hope that the cowboys grow up and start behaving like honorable business people.

      $60 per gallon…geez! Even at $5 per gallon, I should get back in the business.

      Electrified water could mean a lot of things, but I suspect that it is ionized water. I agree with you that ionized water is as good as it gets unless you are one of the few people in the world that lives in an area where nature provide perfect water for free.

      Thanks for the compliments on the blog site. Bernard is working hard to make it a better site. I feel guilty about taking advantage of his skills and generosity.

    • Hey Terry,

      Would you mind if I contacted you for some details on how the ionized water has improved revenue, community interest, add on purchases, etc at your store?

      I have a very good opportunity here with a large health food/coop and would like to provide a few “peer-provided” examples.

      My email is iesolutions@ymail.com If it’s OK, please email your contact info and I’ll call you at your convenience.

      Thanks,
      Gabe

      • Hi Gabe:

        This is what I like to see….readers helping readers. I’m sure Terry will be happy to share, as he has shown that he is generous with his time and he has expressed a genuine interest in helping others.

      • Hi Gabe, yes, Rob is correct as I would be happy to help however I can. I’ll email my info to you shortly. :)

    • Can’t belive you are charging $5/gallon. We give our water away and people buy machines when they get tired of picking it up from us! Regulations are onerous regarding selling bottled water … how do you get around them?

      • Hi Marissa:

        You have been busy on the blog today.

        I don’t think there are any regulations in the industry regarding selling bottled water. I think it is a great policy to give water away for free, as it inspires people to test the water. However, there are many businesses, including pharmacies, health food stores, water stores, even restaurants that sell the water.

        It is just a matter of time until everyone knows about the water. At that time, everyone selling machines will be rich and I will be happy.

      • Hi Marissa,
        Thank you for your input. As for me, I can’t believe Enagic dealers are charging almost $4000.00 for their 7-plate ionizers. Our small store charges for the water to recoup the price paid for the machine and filters. And actually we do give away a gallon of water with the purchase of a one-gallon container, plus I always offer a free 16 oz cup of water to whoever’s interested. If you would like to make suggestions as to how we could improve our sale of ionizers, I would be happy to hear them. Ionizers are virtually unheard of in this part of the country, except for the occasional Enagic/Kangen dealer. As for the regulations you mentioned, I’m not aware of any that apply to our situation. Can you tell me where I can find these regulations that apply, since you’re familiar with them?
        Thanks again, and I look forward to getting to know you better. By the way, which brand do you represent? :)
        Terry

        • Hi Terry:

          Now we are talking…or at least you guys are talking….sharing ideas. This is all good.

        • Perhaps your state has no regulations, or Canada does not. But in our area, we were told that we could not bottle water for sale. There were certain sanitation requirements and inspections that would kick in. Getting a food handlers license for our store and whomever is helping the customer is costly. Our jugs cost us only .60 and we sell them for 1.50. We welcome donations after a 21 day free trial if they absolutely cannot figure out a way to purchase. [We are close to having financing for our customers similar to what is offered at your local appliance store.] Our ionizer is $1299 – not a difficult sale. We offer other wellness services / devices at our store; people can become members of our wellness club and use all the devices and have continued access to the water for $50/month (or $20/week). That membership fee still works out to about $1.50/gallon if it’s one person … less if they are getting 2-3 gallons at a time. (They have to purchase more gallon jugs if they need more.)

          • Hi Marissa:

            Talk about “ask and ye shall receive”. I just replied to your last comment and mentioned that I hope you would share your experience so that others could learn. Then I opened up the next comment to find you doing exactly that. Wow.

            This blog just keeps getting better and better as the pros are coming out to play. Thank you Marissa and thank you to everyone that is contributing. I can’t help but get the feeling that we are on to something good here as everyone wins. I couldn’t be happier.

  9. Hi again Rob,

    It appears you have a “true believer” on your hands. LOL Should make for some really good discussion though. I myself find I have a bit of a love/hate attitude toward Enagic/Kangen dealers, but I’m always mindful of something a very wise man once said: “Get the facts”. -Otherwise, any opinions or conclusions you form will be based on faulty information, and therefore will be faulty also (but then I’m stating the obvious, am I not?). I am curious where Juli is getting her information, and what she does for a living. I would guess she’s not a “research scientist”. (And I would also advise her that it’s far better to have the facts as an ally rather than as an adversary.) :)

    I totally agree with you that we’re all on the same side here and should be pooling our strengths and resources instead of attempting to just “win the argument”. And I appreciate your candor as far as Ronnie Ruiz is concerned. I refrain from any judgment, but I will say I currently have much respect for the man (as I have for you). But my respect is always based on my perception of character and integrity. Naturally my opinion of an individual can change, if my perception of their character/integrity rises or falls.
    Speaking of which, someone else whom I hold in high esteem is Dr. Robert O. Young. I learned of his research about 5 1/2 years ago, and I continue to be an avid student of his work. I strongly suggest you read any or all of his books, if you haven’t already. Many of the topics discussed here on your site have been thoroughly researched by him, including of course how our bodies are affected at the cellular level by drinking alkaline ionized water. As you know, he is a research scientist, who knows how to properly apply the scientific method. See how his work stands up to your BS meter, or shall I say “integrity/character meter”? :)

    I must say, I’m thoroughly enjoying your site and I visit it almost every day. I’m still a beginner when it comes to knowing all there is about ionizers, so you can count me in as a regular visitor, if not a regular contributor.

    Thanks again!
    Terry
    (And I guess the fact that we can charge $5.00 a gallon for ionized water shows how little competition exists in this part of the country- it is still cheaper than the best bottled alkaline waters: Evamor and Essentia)

    • Hi Terry;

      Thanks once again for contributing.

      Let’s leave Ronnie and everyone else out of the equation. Once a person gets past the learning curve about these machines, it is all about the performance and value.

      I want to push prices down so that more people can afford them. I want companies to behave with integrity and to present the truth. Neither of my positions endears me to the owners of the water ionizer industry. Someday, they will see the light, but for now, their short term profit goals are driving their agendas. When they have all lined their pockets with enough gold, I hope they will come to understand that they can really make a difference in the world.

      I agree with your appraisal of Dr. Robert Young in terms of his research. I wish he would stop peddling every product under the sun, but it is his right to do so. I have spoken with Dr. Young a couple of times and my impression is that he has his heart in the right place. I will be inviting Dr. Young and other leading authorities in the industry to join us here on the blog. I would like to create an advisory panel and Dr. Young would definitely be on the panel if he chose to help us.

      • Rob, I also would like to see prices in the affordable range, but let’s be realistic. As long as we have to spend hours and hours and hours educating the prospective customer, there has to be a profit in the sale. And to reach more people, it’s not going to happen with an internet marketeer like Tyent blasting hype everywhere. IMHO of course. One on one hand holding is what it takes. I calculated that I barely made twice minimum wage selling Enagic machines … it was only as I approached 6A that the sales became ‘lucrative’. When I saw the third generation technology I now sell, I had to drop Enagic because the new DDI technology did the same thing for far far less. In fact, in our part of the country with VERY soft but VERY alkaline water (16-30 TDS and 8.0 – 8.7 pH), the new technology beat Enagic hands down and my personal health began to improve again (after 2.5 years drinking 9.5 miracle Kangen water, it was not longer doing the job in eliminating my pain and assisting with weight loss.)

        I would also like to see companies lighten up on us who are serious about this as a full time business and stop treating us like turn-coats if we add another brand to our stores – web or brick and mortar. Sometimes my customers want a specific brand – I can certainly sell it to them. Maybe they don’t “trust” new technology – fine. I’ll sell them a Sanastec (Enagic’s parent company) 5 plate machine or an I.E. (made by the original Toyo engineers – good machines) or the Chanson. I would even sell the smaller Enagic machines – they work great! Anyway … this is getting long … thanks for the blog!

        • Hi Marissa:

          Thanks for your comments and personal insight about Enagic and Vollara . It is great to have you on board. I hope you will provide us with a more detailed testimonial of how the Vollara helped improve your health.

          I agree with you 100% about the silly rules that prevent dealers from dealing with multiple suppliers, or ostracise them for doing so. My personal experience with the machines is that they all work. I understand why the companies want to force dealers to stick with one brand. However, it doesn’t make any sense whatsoever for a dealer to commit to one brand. Customers have different needs and different preferences. Could you image a world of only one brand of car or one style of house.

          My wife and I visited South Korea earlier this year so that we could inspect manufacturing facilities, and meet with scientists, engineers, and quality assurance people. We didn’t meet any scientists as there simply weren’t any around. However, we were really pleased with our discussions with the engineers, and we were really impressed with the work ethic of the people and the commitment to excellence.

          During our visit, we were introduced to new products that will soon be hitting the USA and Canada that will offer consumers a low cost alternative to the current water ionizers that are available. My family has been testing one of the machines for a few months we are expecting to receive another unit to test next week. I’m not allowed to discuss the details yet which is killing me, but I will let you and everyone else know about the machines asap. While Volara nad Sanastec offer machines for lower prices, “you ain’t seen nothin’ yet” to quote the song.

          I look forward to your contributions in the future. It has been brought to my attention by others that you are experienced, passionate, and very talented. We can all learn from you and I hope you are willing to share.

          Mary and I have been testing one of the products in our home for a few months and we expect to receive another next week. I think that the products could change the industry because the price point will make the products affordable for everyone. These products represent a quantum change from the Tyent – EOS – KYK – Chanson – Jupiter – Enagic machines. I will let you (and everyone else that follows the blog) know about the products when I’m allowed to do so.

          • Hi Cameron:

            Thanks for the great comments. As an ex Enagic dealer who sold over 100 machines, and obviously did your homework, I would have to say you are an expert on the topic of both the Enagic system and their machines. Please comment anytime you feel the urge, as we can all learn from you.

            I like the way you kept your comments about Enagic factual.

            Your comment ” Finally, for every one buyer I sold to, I had at least 100 who couldn’t possibly afford to invest $4000 on a water ionizer” was particularly revealing. Even at $2,000, I expect that a large percentage of people will still shy away. That is why I’m so excited about the potential of the hydrogen machines as they will be a fraction of the price. Dr. Hayashi may have been right all along.

            I also like your comment about the the “disposability” factor of machines. Our entire society now seems to be predicated upon built-in obsolescence and the water ionizer industry is no different. A perfect example is the Tyent MMP 7070, which was introduced in the summer of 2008 and has now been discontinued by Tyent. Two years! The company offers a “lifetime warranty” on both parts and labour, and then it permanently mothballs a two year old product. What does that tell you?

          • Hi Rob ,

            I am liking your blog more as I read more as I have recently been enlightened on the possiblities of offering more than 1 Ionizer ..

            Can you give me your take on the Forever Warrnaty that is offered by Tyent , I am having a hard time swallowing this … How long is forever companies come and go and as far as I can tell this warranty is that of the dealer not the manufacturer …

            No-one I have ever heard of offered a Forever Warranty , not even Mercedes .

            While on this subject one of the things that confuses me is this idea of sealed mesh type plates claiming to be better than solid plates , it seems to me that sealed plates could not be cleaned as those found in the Enagic units , I knwo all plates eventuallly will and can get clogged with minerals and such , especially when not properly cared for .

            So my question on the plates is this as it relates to forever warranty , how can they claim a bumper to bumper warranty when these plates could possibly fail, mutliple times in the units lifetime .

            And lastly how can those sealed mesh plates be more effective and easier to mantain than the solid plates that are not in a sealed cell .. Wow I am tired please excuse my writing ..

          • Hi Brian….re:Tyent

            Thanks for the support. I don’t have a lot of Enagic dealers liking me these days as I have been challenging the “factual” content of a lot of presentations and comments that I have been receiving recently. My goal with the posts is to educate, not bash.

            In regards to FOREVER warranties, they are simply a marketing ploy. Tyent is offering forever warranties to project an image of how good their machines are and that you can count on them for life. The reality is that Tyent has discontinued their Tyent 5050 machine which they introduced in October 2007 and they have discontinued their Tyent 7070 which they introduced in August 2008. The 7070 model was only on the market for two years before being discontinued.

            How do you think the people that bought a Tyent 7070 a year ago, feel about the fact that their machine has been made obsolete by the simple fact that the company discontinued the product? Not great. Of course Tyent is offering to fix the machines, which I assume they will do until they run out of parts. And then what? My guess, and I’m only guessing, is that they will offer new machines at a huge discount to people that need warranty work done. Even if they offer the new machines for half price, Tyent will still make a large profit.

            It gets worse. Tyent bought some machines last year from EOS Hitech and offered them to the public as the IonQuench 8080. The machine came with a 7 year warranty. As soon as Tyent sold off the 250 machines they bought from EOS Hitech, their “best value” machine on the market as advertised by ionizersreviewed.com disappeared. What a bloody mess.

            Now you have Tyent offering the KYK machine. With the seemingly never ending lawsuit between EOS Hitech and Tyent/KYK over the manufacturing rights of the unit, I’m not sure that Tyent is going to be able to obtain more machines from KYK in the future. It smells like another IonQuench episode to me, but once again, I’m just guessing.

            Next, Tyent is bringing out their Evontis MLM products, which I think are going to be a business disaster. Oh boy!

            In regards to plates, I wish people would just leave it alone. Both plate systems work. The Enagic plates can be opened up by the customer, but they never are. How many Enagic customers do you know that have opened up their machines and talken apart the ionization chamber? I bet the answer is none. In fact, how many Enagic customers send their machine to California to be cleaned once per year as recommended by the company? I bet the answer to that one is none as well.

            Plates take a long time to break down the platinum coating unless people are using the machine alot, and they are using a huge amount of power each tiem (like Enagic does) when they are ionizing at the extreme ends of the pH range. Even then, plates last a long time. My guess is that people will change machines before they have to change their plates.

            BTW, this comment should have been in the Tyent forum. We hope to have it set up properly by tomorrow.

  10. Hi Rob,

    I run http://www.water-filters.net which compares the features many of the popular water ionizers. I would like to invite Kangen dealers, or any water – health-related site, to submit their link for inclusion at http://www.water-filters.net/water-filter-links.html. Submission requirement is listed at the page. Basically, we’ll list any site in exchange for a link to our other water filter site http://www.thewaterexchange.net. For information, e-mail: info@thewaterexchange.net.

    • Hi Howard:

      I checked out your site. I see your company offers pre-filter solutions to people that sell water ionizers. I believe every man woman and child should be drinking alkaline water. I also believe that everyone should also have a pre-filter system that removes contaiminants out of the water. It only makes sense to make the source water as good as possible before it enters a water ionizer or hydrogen machine.

      Your desire to list Kangen dealers on your site seems like a logical thing to do as you can then sell them water filters. Good luck with it.

      I’m trying to build a directory of dealers as well, but my goals are to help dealers gain exposure and to help the public find dealers. I don’t sell anybody anything.

  11. Nobody talks about LIFE ionizers? Why is that?? What can you tell me about these machines???
    Thanks in advance for your help!

    • Hi Alex:

      I’m a strong believer in the philosophy that if you don’t have anything nice to say, then don’t say anything at all. My goal is to educate people about the water and to support the industry. I don’t know how I could say anything about Life Ionizers that would help spread goodwill. Suffice it to say that I’m supporting the industry by keeping my mouth shut on this subject.

      Perhaps one of our readers can put in a good word for Life Ionizers.

  12. There seems to be no comments on Life Ionizers? Why is that?? Can someone provide info on
    these machines??? Thanks.

  13. Hi,I’m a teenage son of an Enagic distributor.He gives people free alkaline water at their office when they visit, and I must say I’m proud of their good intentions.However,I have something to say regarding the pricing of the machine: It seems that out of 3 people, 1 cannot afford it.Enagic’s pricing is 35% manufacturing costs,65% marketing cost(found this on http://kangencomparison.wordpress.com/ ) . Seems like much,but look at the 15% manufacturing costs,85% marketing cost of Life Ionizers.Really makes me wonder how Enagic manages.By the way Rob,are you Rob Gray?

    • Hi Si Yuan:

      It is great to see young people taking an interest in the water. It is also good to see the respect that you have for your father.

      I find it interesting that you say that 1 out of 3 people can’t afford a $4,000 water ionizer. I have talked to other Enagic dealers who say that they are able to sell to only 1 out of 100 or perhaps 1 out of 200. If your father can sell to 1 out of 3, he must be incredibly talented.

      I can assure you that the manufacturing cost of Enagic machines is not 35% of $4,000 which would be $1,400. If you are referring to 35% of the cost that Enagic introduces the machine to their MLM system, then you would be referring to 35% of $1,700 which would be $595. That number would be closer to reality but still much more than I’m lead to believe by my research.

      I would say that your numbers for Life Ionizers are in the right ballpark, but I expect that the Enagic numbers are worse.

      I’m definitely not Rob Gray. It is my understanding that Mr. Gray is a hidden partner with Mr. Bocutti, the owner of Tyent USA. Mr. Bocutti denies the connection. I have been led to believe that the two gentlemen have previous business connections. I do know that Tyent USA pays for the website that Mr. Gray operates and pays an extraordinary amount of money advertising Mr. Gray’s site via Google Adwords. I don’t have a problem with someone advertising their wares on the internet, but I think to be fair to the public, Tyent USA should declare its interest in Mr. Gray’s site. The “independent” nature of the review site is not independent at all, which I believe is misleading.

  14. But of course.However, as Enagic still uses the ‘outdated’ solid pltes,unlike Life which uses mesh technology.So naturally, its production cost will be much higher.So assuming that Life as an equal exposed plate area,and assuming the mesh requires 1/3 or 1/4 as much metal as the solid plate,we would have production costs for Enagic as:

    If Life uses 1/3 as much materials: $308×3=$924
    If Life uses 1/4 as much materials: $308×4=$1232

    So,by these nonsensical calculations,Enaic’s manufacturing costs would probably be somewhere from 23-31% .Of course,these are all wild guesses,as I don’t have a Life ionizer unit to dismantle.But I heard you have many units,so you might want to experiment a bit.Pleased to know that you are not Rob Gray, so at least we have an unbiased comparison.I’ll just include a few questions here:
    1:What is the relationship between Enagic and Sanastec?
    2:Will you be writing an article about plate designs(eg.flat,slotted,mesh hybrid) anytime soon?

    That’s all.Merry Christmas!

    • Hi Si Yuan:

      Thanks for your comments.

      Plates:

      Everyone in the industry uses titanium plates that are coated in platinum. The platinum coating protects the user from ingesting titanium colloids that are created when power is run across the plates.

      My understanding is that the use of slotted plates increases the surface area of the plates by as much as 25%, but I have only read that. I’m not a physicist, so I don’t know how to accurately take the measurement. The depth of the slot certainly wouldn’t make up 25% of the large flat surface of the plate. Perhaps one of our readers could help us out with this.

      The thickness of the plates is virtually irrelevent other than for the possible longevity of the plates themselves. Enagic blasts so much power across their plates that their plate would wear out much faster than the plates used in the modern machines. In my opinion, the least amount of power used to get the job done is the best solution. That is why I think the EOS machine is the best machine on the market. Even though the EOS machine has the capability of providing 300 Watts of power, I have never been able to get EOS machines to generate more than 120 Watts (and most times only 85 Watts) in my lab unless I hook the machine up to a reverse osmosis system. The Tyent Turbo on the other hand blasts away at 210 to 215 Watts of power every time I use the Turbo mode. Both machines generate approximately the same pH and ORP output, but the EOS uses much less power. The Enagic blasts along at 280 Watts, which creates a lot of colloidal activity. The Enagic machine was and continues to be made in Japan, where the water is very soft. Because the water is soft, which means it is lacking in minerals, a water ionizer machine needs a lot more power to generate a wide spectrum of pH levels. Unless you live in an area which has very soft water such as the east or west coast lines of the USA and Canada, the amount of power used by an Enagic machine is tremendous overkill.

      Costs:

      I don’t know the specific cost of the plates used by Life Ionizers. I do know that they import all of their materials from Asia and they have a reputation of purchasing the lowest cost materials in the industry. I assume the reaon Life has an outrageosly high return rate has something to do with the materials that they use.

      I notice that you used a cost of $308 for the plates for the Life Ionizer. I would have to disagree with that asssumption. I don’t know the exact cost of the plates they use, but I would assume they pay about $15 per plate, which would be similar to the cost of all of the other slotted/mesh plates used in the industry. Therefore, I think it would be more reasonable to assume that the real cost of the plates for a 7 plate Life Ionizer machine would be approximately $100.

      I don’t know the cost of the Enagic plates, and to be honest, I don’t really care. The only issue is whether the plates work or not. The Enagic machines are made in Japan, where the water is very soft. The lack of minerals in soft water means that a machine requires a lot more power to produce a wide spectrum of pH and ORP. When the Enagic machines were created 14 years ago, perhaps the engineers at Toyo believed that they required thick plates to withstand the rapid decay due to the extremely high use of power. I find it strange that Enagic has never updated their technology. The temperature and twisting of thinner plates argument used by some Enagic dealers is simply not based upon fact.

      I don’t know the overall cost of manufacturing an Enagic SD501. Ronnie Ruiz, the owner of the Chanson distribution rights claims that the cost of the parts in the Enagic SD501 is $169. Unfortunately, it is impossible to give credence to anything Ronnie says, as he changes his story every time he opens his mouth, and he and Rick Cabados of Life Ionizers seem to have a competition between themselves to see who can stab the most people in the industry in the back. If I had to guess, I would say that the actual cost of an Enagic SD501 coming out of the factory including labor would be in the $400 to $500 range like all of the other leading machines on the market. If Enagic does spend more on its plates, it boggles the mind why they wouldn’t update their technology to lower their costs without altering the performance.

      Enagic/Sanastec

      I don’t have any evidence of an ownership relationship between the two companies. Once again, Ronnie Ruiz has a lot to say, but we have already crossed that bridge. I do know that a lot of Enagic dealers are not happy with the fact that Sanastec has encroached on the Enagic turf with a similar product made by the same company which sells for 40% less money. Enagic dealers will be quick to point out the differences in the machines, but the Sanastec machine, like many other machines on the market works.

      Plate Design

      I don’t have any plans to write an article on the subject as I have covered it many times. The bottom line is that slotted plates (mesh plates are not really mesh as they are simply slotted plates set one on top of the other) are supposedly more efficient. The slotted plates don’t heat up or twist under normal use. The plate controversy has been hugely overblown as part of the marketing strategies of the various companies. Plate size and configuration play a small role in the performance of a machine, but their impact pales in comparison to the condition of the source water.

      • “”mesh plates are not really mesh as they are simply slotted plates set one on top of the other)””

        Hi Rob,

        This is true with some mfgs, but not with EmcoTech/Jupiter Science, who invented the mesh electrode.

        Our electrode is a “punched” plate of titanium that is then electrocoated robotically with platinum. It is the best conducting and longest lasting electrode on the market, they first came out in our Aquarius and Orion machines 6 years ago, and we are not experiencing any failure or degradation on our electrodes. Currently they are available in our Athena and Delphi models, and again, no issues with performance or longevity…

        Our self cleaning system, called DARC, changes the polarity at a one to one ratio, virtually eliminating any mineral scaling on the electrodes, which means our machines continue to put out great alteration to the water year after year… You can see a diagram at http://www.ionways.com/ionways_durability.aspx . I have hundreds of customers I know personally that I can refer people to who will attest to this. Our water cells are bullet proof, I like to say.
        And the electrodes are not “slotted”… A pic of our electrode can be seen at http://www.ionways.com/ionways_performance.aspx

  15. If you want the real breakdown about the differences in the various water ionizing technologies from an engineer who understands all this and can cut through all the negative advertisement disguised as unbiased, independent third-parties go look at the Laurie Tauscher report: http://kangencomparison.wordpress.com/2009/02/09/price-comparison-by-lauri-tauscher/

    You will understand that all these “features” such as mesh plates, though advertised as superior and the newest technology over Enagic and it’s so-called antiquated technology is all a lie and an old advertising gimick! It’s called, taking a feature that is actually a flaw and selling it as though it were superior. Also, go look at the Enagic website: http://www.enagic.com, where you will see all the awards and certifications for our technology photocopied right there. Others claim to be medically certified, etc., but have nothing to show for it. And yes, I am biased because I own an SD501 which is absolutely worth every penny I spent on it and I understand that it is the best machine in it’s class on the market and that all these others cost less by comparison because they Are much less and offer much less over all. So have at it and have a wonderful day!

    • Hi Carol:

      Thanks for providing your thoughts.

      I love your passion. Enagic’s success has been built on the passion and commitment of owners and distributors like Carol, and we are all better off because of it.

      I’m not going get into an argument with you Carol. Kangen machines work. You are happy with your purchase and that makes the machine worth every cent you paid for it. If someone offered me $10,000 or even $25,000 for any one of the eight different kinds of machines I have in my house (Mary has been giving some away as presents), and it was the last machine I could ever own, I wouldn’t take the money. Therefore, value lies in the perceived benefit.

      I wish you all the best.

    • Carol, when I first read Laurie’s report two years ago I thought it was pretty good, but I was really surprised at some of her claims and the sloppiness of her research. She was just parroting what she had been told by others – no original investigation. Dr. Parker’s report was OK, but biased and full of unsubstantiated opinion, and it was based on old ionizer models no longer relevant.

      There is one person I know of who digs in and investigates in a scientific manner, and that’s Arayana Nation. I wish she would share what she has learned here. It supports the plate quality aspect of Enagic totally.

      But honestly, that’s irrelevant when source water quality is the primary issue determining results, and source water determines how well these expensive Enagic plates work. It’s also irrelevant when we know ALL plates deteriorate over time, especially when you make a lot of strong water, or if you don’t change your internal filter frequently and get chlorine deteriorating the platinum more quickly. And consumers have no idea when that happens if they aren’t monitoring ORP, which requires a quirky unreliable $100+ meter. When it happens, the titanium/titanium alloy cloud of metal colloid can be detrimental. Actually, the titanium is not even the issue … it’s the alloy components that can be a problem. That’s where Enagic shines with 99.9% pure titanium, but you STILL don’t want your plates to wear to the point that titanium is exposed!

      • Hi Cathy:

        I bet the Enagic people are wishing they had paid more attention to your concerns right about now. I hope that you are still in the business helping people with your knowledge and passion.

        I hope you and John keep posting your comments. You are both contributing great stuff and I’m learning from both of you. When I started this blog, I hoped to be able to share some of the things I have learned. I never thought it would grow into this awesome sharing of information forum. The more that people like yourselves contribute, the greater the liklihood that the Enagic dealers will be properly educated. The better the dealers get educated, the better the public gets educated because it is the Enagic dealers who are doing all the work. My sincere thanks to you both for your efforts today, and to everyone else that keeps this place interesting.

      • Hi Cathy:

        Please try to convince Arayana to join our forum. I think we can all learn from her.

        As I mentioned in an earlier comment, the source water plays a HUGE role in the performance of any machine. The crazy thing is that your source water changes constantly. People think that when they drink water from their taps, they are getting the same thing every time because it is clear. Nothing could be further from the truth.

        As soon as I had been in the business for a few months and started getting feedback from customers who had purchased machines from me, I began to understand the role of source water. I tried to get answers from Tyent USA as I was paying them large licensing fees, but they were not interested, or they didn’t know the answers. That is when I began my journey into researching about water.

      • Carol,

        There is a new company that has water systems that make energized, alkaline water WITHOUT electricity. No more titanium plates! They have an AMAZING pay program and they truly seek to offer the highest quality products while still keeping things affordable. Works with all water types (well or municipal, hard or soft). They have several types of machines, starting around $400. 9.5 alkaline rating, great ORP, and great -perfect results removing contaminants. Email me if you are interested. It’s much easier to run a business when the technology is truly cutting edge and the price points are actually affordable. (aheydel@gmail.com)

    • Laurie Tauscher’s “report” is so bogus and flawed as to not even deserve the time to respond to it.

      Her arguments all require you assume some basic “facts’, which in fact are not factual.

      Peggy Parker also produces very convincing looking “reports” for enagic that are anything but factual and scientific…

      We need less of this dishonest nonsense in our industry… come on people, if you cannot prove something you are claiming as fact, please stop making the claim…

      It is intellectually lazy and dishonest to rely on these so called “experts’ and their poorly disguised marketing pieces designed to justify the high price of the SD501…. Fact is, it is not the best product on the market and is grossly overpriced.

      All the machines make the same alteration to the water, and if there is something magical or special about water from an SD501 or any other machine, not one person to this date has proven this.

      Again, the independent lab testing we conducted over 2.5 years ago is the ONLY impartial info available on this subject… if someone else wants to refute that data, they can do the same tests at the same lab or another one of thier choosing…

      any claims made as to the superiority of a product should be backed up with facts and data, in my opinion…

      Enagic claims never are, in my opinion… do your due diligence people, be skeptical… really dig in and make sure you are speaking the truth, have integrity…

      Happy New Year to you all!

      • Gavin, I’m surprised you simply dismiss Laurie’s report. If I were a stakeholder in IonWays or Tyent I’d probably call my legal counsel and at least have them send one of those nasty cease and desist letters. Put up or shut up. Or get the FTC to investigate the claims they are making (although I don’t think that course would be good for anyone in the industry … except the new guys who would see everyone else wither under FTCs scrutiny.)

        So how does the US industry bury the hatchet and come together in a nonprofit association that can self-police? An association that can issue credible reports, support credible research, and show a united response to people like Mercola and other skeptics who are damaging sales for everyone? I’ve been part of such an effort in the past … it’s not easy, but it seems its past time to get that accomplished here.

      • Gavin,

        What facts are not factual? Again, you offer us claims and no real facts. Feel free to call Enagic about any of your questions (cost to manfacture, plate composition, etc.) Enagic is totally “open book” and transparent. They will tell you exactly what their sales/marketing budget is, how much distributors make, and how every dollar of the cost is accounted for. No other company on the market is willing to do the same (based on my research).

        • Hi Indigo:

          I respectfully disagree with you that Enagic is “open book”. But lets still be friends :)

  16. Just a couple of comments:

    Enagic/Sanastech: They are definitely related. Enagic doesn’t deny that. Sanastec is the parent company, or that they are market in the US. It’s like Toyota and Lexus. The ionizers are not exactly the same .. Sanastech is an older model … but it’s the same basic technology. The highest priced Sanstec is comparable to the Enagic DX but without some upgrades … the owner of ThinkAlkaline.com who imports the Sanastec is wonderful to talk to and will give you an honest history of the relationship. I recommend you contact him and have a chat!

    Regarding Laurie Tauscher’s report/comparison … it’s comprehensive, but not unbiased by any means. She’s an Enagic Dealer, so bias is present. And not 100% accurate. Read it Rob … I’d love your take on where she takes the Enagic story for granted without checking facts, and how she repeats what Enagic has said about other technologies.

    Keep up the good work!

    • Hi IWN Editor:

      First things first….is there a name that I can refer to you by? Somehow IonWater News Editor just doesn’t seem right.

      Before I begin, I would like to thank your website for referring people to my blog. The referrals are really picking up these days which makes me happy because it means somebody thinks the work that I do is important….or at least worth a quick read.

      I have heard basically the same info about the Sanastec/Enagic relationship. Perhaps you could encourage the owner of thinkalkaline.com to comment about their product here :)

      I’m fairly sure I have Laurie’s report in the past and it struck me as being biased as well in regards to incomplete or incorrect information about competitive brands. I will read it again.

      I don’t really have a problem with someone who is biased as long as they provide good information and they declare their bias. It is no different from being a proud American or a proud Canadian etc. In fact, I really like the way that Enagic distributors are so loyal to their brand. Passion and conviction are sure sign that someone is out there spreading the word. What I don’t like is the bashing of other products or the disseminaton of false statements because it hurts the entire industry.

      I will get back to you with my thoughts once I have read Laurie’s report.

  17. Oh by the way,Laurie’s report seems to be updated every two years or so,so be sure you have the latest version.Also,I’ve seen on a Sanastec blog that their most advanced ionizer is roughly the same as the Enagic DX model,aside from some features.I do believe they were the same company though.And lastly,the prices of ionizers seems to vary from country to country-my Enagic SD501 was from Hong Kong,priced at exactly SGD$5000.

    • Hi Si Yuan, Carol, Editor:

      I had a chance to listen the an Enagic conference call this evening that was hosted on Saturday December 18 by Eli & Jilliana Dafesh which featured Laurie Tauscher as the guest speaker.

      I had been lead to believe by a number of Enagic distributors and others that Laurie is now an Enagic all star. Her background is in engineering and she is a very successful Enagic distributor. Laurie is a 6A2, which I believe means her group has sold at least 200 Enagic machines. I was informed that she is very knowledgable about the technical side of water ionizers and she is also very well informed about the products of Enagic’s competitors, so I was anxious to hear what she had to say. I took 5 pages of notes while listening to her talk:

      1) Laurie is well spoken and passionate about Enagic
      2) It appears that Laurie knows very little about the technical side of the workings of a water ionizer
      3) I very much doubt Laurie has ever taken apart and tested the products of competitors. If Laurie owns a voltage meter and an amperage meter, I’m pretty sure that she has never used it to test the competitive machines that she talks about.
      4) Laurie’s facts about the Enagic machine were grossly inaccurate
      5) Laurie’s facts about Tyent and Jupiter machines were grossly inaccurate
      6) Laurie made a number of what I expect are indictable claims about the benefits of Enagic machines
      7) Laurie made a number of slanderous remarks about competitive products which I suspect will be very difficult to defend

      I feel compelled to pass along a copy of Laurie’s comments to Jay Hare at Ion Ways and Joe Bocutti at Tyent USA. It will be up to those two gentlemen to decide what to do with the evidence, but if I were them, I would immidiately initiate legal proceedings against both Laurie and Enagic. I can’t imagine what the two gentlemen will think when they hear Enagic’s shining star tell God knows how many people on a conference call that drinking water from Tyent or Jupiter machines is likely to make people sick. No wonder the competition hates Enagic so much.

      I can see Laurie’s words landing both Laurie and Enagic in a heap of trouble. Enagic is already dealing with a 9 month injuction against it in Japan that was issued by the Japanese Consumer Affairs Agency in Japan for MLM sales infractions. You can read about this here:
      http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=469087766871&id=77180144556

      I’m glad I had a chance to hear Laurie speak, but there is a part of me that wishes that I had never heard her talk. If Laurie is the best that Enagic has to offer, then Enagic is in a lot deeper trouble than I thought. You just can’t say the things she is said from an ethical or legal standpoint. People that listen to MLM conference calls depend upon the information that they here to form part of their own personal marketing strategy.

      Listening to Laurie talk on the conference call confirms my very worst concerns about the inability of MLM companies to control the messge being passed on by their distributors to the public. If you want to listen to the very long conference call, you can so here: http://www.audioacrobat.com/play/WhKB8mvs. I have to warn you that the first ten minutes or so are typical of a MLM conference call and are therefore very tedious.

      When I have finished my four part year end review series, I will be writing an article about this very serious issue in greater deatail.

    • The Enagic Sanastec relationship is one very big reason why I was willing to start digging and finding other voices that would tell me the truth. I felt I was lied to by my ‘upline’ because I was told the ONLY way I could get this technology was through Enagic. And that Enagic had the exclusive patent on the technology, and everything else was a knock off/pretender. The myth promoted was Enagic was the original, and I learned that was not truthful.

      Sanastec and Enagic are most definitely the same company. We have different models, options, bells and whistles, and pricing. Look at Sanastec pricing to see the true price of an Enagic water ionizer … in other words, add $1000 for the sales/marketing model Enagic USA uses.

      • Hi Cathy:

        I have heard this complaint before as more than a few Enagic dealers are not happy about the whole Sanastec thing. When you say “look at Sansatec to see the true price of Enagic ionized water, I assume you are referring to what you think the retail price should be.

  18. Why not just pass the nonsense she said to Tyent and Ionways?We need to warn those that are spreading marketing hype a good lesson,or the problem would get worse.Although many distributors on the net are just like Laurie,caring only for sales and not for the customers.An article supposedly debunking the ‘myths and facts’ of Enagic machines can be found easily on the web,and that article was writen by Life Ionizers and Jupiter,and pay a fee to appear at top spots on search engines.By the way,I’ve heard that 52% of the Enagic’s profits going back to the distributors,meaning that they make a lot of profit from the machines,despite the marketing plan.Assuming it’s true,this also means that Enagic’s pricing on machines can actually be reduced by about a quarter or so,although it will slow the growth of Enagic by 5 to 6 times.I hope the day where companies put customers before personal benefit will come soon.

    • Hi Si Yuan:

      I did pass the information that Laurie said on to Tyent and IonWays last night. I hope that both companies take action against Laurie and Enagic because you can’t have people going around saying the things she says. The fact that Laurie has so much influence in the Enagic community makes it all the more disturbing.

      I agree with you that Life Ionizers will say or do anything to hurt others. I don’t believe you should place IonWays in the same catagory.

      I agree with you 100% that Enagic itself makes a lot of profit on every machine that is sold. In fact, I have written an article on the topic. Blaming the distributors for the high price of the Enagic SD501 is ridiculous. I can’t confirm your numbers in regards to the 52% or 5 to 6 times. I can see how reducing the price would reduce profits by 5 to 6 times, but I can’t see how reducing the price would slow growth.

      I find it intriguing that one Enagic dealer (Laurie) claims that the cost of the SD501 is $1,400, while another dealer (you) claim that if the company dropped their price by 1/4 (by $1,000), then the company’s earning would be reduced by 5 or 6 times. According to Laurie’s figures, if the company dropped the price by $1,000, then the company would be losing approximately $700 per unit. I assume your numbers are a lot more realistic.

      Based upon my assumption that the SD501 actually costs about $500 to manufacture, and the assumption that the MLM team would recieve the same level of compensation ($2,300), then reducing the selling price to $3,000 would result in a profit of $200 per unit ($700 less $500). My guess is that Enagic currently makes about $1,200 per machine before turning it over to the MLM team ($1,700 less $500). Therefore, I think your number of a 5 to 6 times reduction in profit is a good estimate.

      If Enagic reduced their profit from $1,200 per machine to $500 profit, and then paid out another $1,000 per machine to its MLM team, then the retail price of the SD501 could be set at $2,000. If the SD501 were priced at $2,000, then the “me too” companies like Tyent and Life Ionizers and Chanson wouldn’t even be around.

      I believe that the time is coming soon when the leaders of the industry will have to put the interests of their customers first. If the existing owners don’t do the right thing, then people need to support the companies that do look out for their customers.

  19. While Ionways will not hurt others for personal benefit,some of the distributors might.Also, my calculations were based on Laurie’s assumptions that 35% of total cost is the manufacturing cost,and 52% of profits are given to the distributors.Of course,I’m not blaming the distributors for the high cost(Enagic had itself to blame).To prove that Laurie doesn’t know what she is talking about,let’s just use the information in this post(gotten from parts of Laurie’s report on the internet) as the principles for calculations.Values are given is US dollars.

    Manufacturing cost=35%x$4000(as prices vary from country to country)=$1400
    Marketing cost total per SD501=$4000- $1400=$2600
    Profit for Enagic for SD501=$2600 x 48%=$1248

    Assuming Laurie’s number are accurate,Enagic earns $1248 per SD501.Which means that decreasing the price by $1000 will make Enagic earn 20% as much as if it doesn’t reduce the prices.Now by your assumptions the Enagic’s SD501 costs $500 to manufacture:

    Marketing cost=$4000-$500=$3500
    Profit by Enagic per SD501=$3500 x 48%=$1680

    Surprisingly,the numbers are not that different.The point of me writing this is that Enagic machines are not ballooned to the extent that competitors say,but its price can still be greatly reduced.And I’ve four more questions:
    1.How do you test whether water contains titanium?
    2.Have you heard of AOX water ionizers?If yes,how is it and which country is it from?
    3.Do you think plate size makes a difference?
    4.Have you read the report by Dr Peggy Parker(Enagic distributor)?

    • Hi Si Yuan:

      Thanks for commenting again. I appreciate the effort that you are making.

      I don’t know exactly how much Enagic makes on each machine it sells to its distributors, but it is alot. Chanson makes alot as well. Others like Tyent and Life don’t make as much, but they still do very well. However, the dealers for the direct marketers don’t make nearly as much as the $2,30 paid out to the Enagic MLM system. All the machines could and should be offered for much lower prices. I believe 2011 will see big changes in the industry and those that don’t respond public demand for lower prices will see their market share disappear.

      I don’t have answers for your first question.

      I have seen AOX on Alibaba. The Alibaba site can be good, but it can also be a scam. I checked out the AOX site. I found vitamin C demo interesting but I’m not sure it proves what the demonstration says it proves. I’m sure if you contact the company that they will provide you with details.

      Plate size doesn make a difference, but not nearly as much as people think. The real factors affecting pH and ORP output are the source water, the length of time that water is in contact with the plates in a water ionizer, and the amount of power flowing over the plates. Nobody in the water ionizer industry acknowledges how important the source water is because they can’t control it (except for the antioxidant filters). Slowing down the water flow will more than make up for smaller plates.

      I have not read the report by Dr. Peggy Parker but I will. I’m almost afraid to read it after being directed by a number of Kangen reps to Laurie Tauscher’s work because she is looked upon by so many in the Kangen network as an expert. I will report back when I have checked it out.

  20. Enagic’s SD501 costs $1400 to produce and is marked up 185%. The EMCO Tech ionizers all cost a few hundred dollars to make and are marked up over 560%. If Enagic sold their machine under the same price structure as Tyent, Life, KYK or Jupiter, it would cost more than $9000.

    • Hi John:

      Thanks for joining us.

      Could you please provide proof for your statement that the SD501 costs $1,400 to produce.

      Everyone knows that Enagic turns their units over to the MLM system at a cost of $1,700 as it is public information. Please permit me a question. How do yousuppose Enagic can make enough money to pay for huge amount of promotional work and advertising, shipping, staffing, warranty work, office expenses etc. if they only make $300 per unit? Lauerie mentioned a number of $14,000 in her Enagic pep talk, and you suggest a $9,000 figure, so it is confusing to me how and where Enagic Dealers get their numbers.

      Anybody that believes that the cost to manufacture a SD501 is $1,400 should take a long hard look at source of the information. When they are at it, maybe they might want to question some of the other information they heard from that source.

      Since everyone seems to be bringing up the cost of the SD501, I think I will write an article about it early in the new year. If anyone has any concrete information about actuals costs, I would be grateful if you would share it with us. Everyone in the industry complains about the price of Enagic (including me), so why don’t we get this topic out in the open where everyone, including Enagic Distributors can learn the truth

      I expect the entire house of cards (as in misinformation) is going to come down on Enagic in 2011. If that happens, it will be a tragedy if the Distributors pick up their ball and go home. Our society needs the water and the Enagic Distributors seem to be the only way that the word is spreading so far.

      • As far as I know, Enagic is pretty open about their sales and marketing budget comprising 65% of the cost of the machine, making the cost to manufacture 35% of $3980, or about $1400. Feel free to call Enagic and ask them this. They have been upfront and totally transparent with every question like this I’ve asked them.
        But you’re obscuring the point by calling into question maybe $100-200. The point is that the SD501 is the only device that can actually fractionate water and reduce significant amounts of hydrogen. I can hold a lighter flame up to the stream of water coming from my ionizer and have it snap, crackle, pop and explode because of all the active hydrogen. The other guys are cheap, use titanium and platinum alloys which are poorer conductors and more prone to mechanical failure due to the mesh design. The SMPS doesn’t allow for actual fractionation of the water, just an alkaline effect from all the alkaline minerals the EMCO Tech ionizers (Tyent, Jupiter, Life, KYK) pack their multiple, very big filters with. They’re not stable hexagonal, medically effective water.

        • Hi John:

          Thanks for getting back to us and expanding your thoughts.

          I know the actual costs of a number of machines from commercial invoices from the manufacturers, from quotations from manufacturers, and from parts lists. I would be absolutely stunned if the Enagic machine cost more than $500. The only possible way that the machine could cost over $500 was if the plates cost $60 each and I doubt that very much. However, I’m eager to hear from anyone that can change my thinking.

          Using a SMPS or a transformer doesn’t make any difference when it comes to fractionation of the water. Both systems supply power to the plates, with one being steady and the other delivering the power in pulses.

          I have to disagree with you that the SD501 is the only device that can fractionate water and reduce significant amounts of hydrogen. I have performed the lighter test on all the different brands of machine that I have in my lab and they all produce the same popping sound and make the flame jump around as the hydrogen gas ignites.

          In regards to the other units using cheap materials that are poorer conductors and more prone to failure, I would like to see scientific evidence of that. Based upon the very large number of units that I sold when I was in the business, and being in communication with the tech support people of most of the other brands, I can tell you that I have never seen has seen a plate go bad for any brand and the incidence of bad plates in virtually unheard of. I suspect that the techies that I talk to haven’t seen 10 faulty plates out of the 50,000 machines they have serviced over the years.

          All the water ionizer produce hexagonal water.

          I assume that by “medically effective water”, you are referring to the Japanese government certificaton of Enagic’s machines. Unless I’m mistaken, the certification is for acidic water only to be used as a disinfectant.

          I love your passion for the water. However, I think that you have been educated by people within the Enagic system as opposed to doing your own unbiased research. The reason that everyone else in the industry knocks Enagic is due to the false information that gets passed around and around and around. The SD501 that I have in my lab works great, but so do the other 10 brands that I have tested.

          Please don’t get discouraged by my comments. Our society needs your passion and hard work.

          • To me, in my kitchen from my machine, stable, medically effective water is water which has an ORP of -800mV or even higher that is stable and persists for 56 hours or more in the proper bottle when the EMCO Tech boys can only give me about 1 hour before reverting to a +10mV. It is water that is produced by an ionizer that is manufactured in an ISO 14385 certified facility. Whatever. Nobody else is getting any actual results with the EMCO Tech ionizers. Nobody is lining up outside of their distributorships for free water. No world-class surgeons/clinical professors of surgery/chiefs of surgical endoscopy/ have been using their water for 35 years and claiming to have a 0% cancer remission rate. No 35-year board-certified vascular surgeon and Harvard Graduate cum laude is endorsing those waters as the best wellness tool he’s ever seen. No weight loss gurus (Jilian Michaels of “The Biggest Loser” thinks Kangen water is the greatest weight loss tool she’s seen) or UFC fighters or professional athletes or raw foodists or Tao Masters are endorsing the water from Tyent, Jupiter, KYK or Life. There are no mechanical engineers beating down doors to tell the world about those waters. In Japan, when a prescription for Kangen water is written, it has to come from an Enagic machine.
            A non-profit association of 6600 doctors and surgeons in a country whose health care system our own doctors in the Journal of the American Medical Association call the “#1 health care system in the world”, focuses on prevention of geriatric disease. This group endorses products which benefit mankind and are the best in their class for bringing true health and aiding in the prevention and treatment of disease. This is the largest and most prestigious association of doctors in Japan, and they select only 1 product per industry to receive their award of ‘Product Recognition’ and award of ‘Endorsement Recognition’. From a field of more than 30 water ionizers from around the world, this prestigious group of doctors selected Enagic to receive both awards every year since 2002.
            You are an interesting fellow, Mr. Rob Thomas. I get the feeling that you’re anti-Enagic and have some sophisticated relationship in and around the EMCO Tech ionizers, and that you’re feigning interest and impartiality as you gather tidbits of information to help you in your plight. The EMCO Tech ionizers seem to be very good at letting Enagic sell their machines for them.
            I will be very interested to see how you spin the Lauri Tauscher interview when you get around to unveiling your 5 pages of notes. Until then, good luck and I hope you have a great New Year.

          • Hi John:

            You have brought out a lot of Enagic marketing material. I have heard it all before and it is good stuff. It is important information that the public needs to know. My only problem with all of the information is that it is always presented as “Enagic or nothing” which I don’t believe is true. The corporate claims and counter claims just bring the industry down in my opinion. Alkaline ionized water changed my life for the better 2 1/2 years ago and my improved health has remained to this day. The water wasn’t from an Enagic machine, but it could have been.

            I’m definitely not anti-Enagic. I’m not a fan of some of the things Enagic does, but I believe that the Enagic distributors have been and continue to hold the key to the growth of the industry. I fear for the future of Enagic, and I think it would be tragic to lose the passion of all the great people who take the message to the street.

            I definitely don’t have a relationship with IonWays in any way. I was hoping to build up a level of trust with Jay Hare in the fall, but it was ruined by the one of the IonWays people who informed Jay that I was a megalomaniac who was trying to take over the industry (the exact words that Ronnie Ruiz from Chanson has been telling everyone that will listen). Good ol’ Ronnie…spreading his brand of joy where ever he goes. I was hoping Jay and the IonWays people would take up the cause for Ian Hamilton’s Antioxidant Filters but they already had plans to bring out their own. Jay Hare and his team are ethical people and that goes a long way in my books. All the machines work, so I believe ethics and behavior become really important.

            I agree with you that EMCO Tech and all the other brands ride the coat tails of Enagic and have been doing so for a long time. It is time the other companies did some of the heavy lifting. If Enagic would price their product in line with the market, Enagic would clean up because of the dedication of their distributors.

            I personally don’t care which ionizer a person buys as long as people drink the water.

            I won’t put a spin on the Laurie Tauscher speech as I will just repeat what I heard and compare what she said to my own personal research. If you don’t like what I have to say, I’m sure you will classify it as “spin”. I loved listening to Laurie’s passion for the water but it is important that lines don’t get crossed or the entire industry suffers.

            I hope you and every other person out there who helps educate the public about the water have a great new year. We all need to pull in the same direction and there are hundreds of millions of people in America who can benefit from the water, regardless of the brand.

          • And I’ve read dozens of testimonials from people who got the EMCO Tech machines and got sick and have seen dozens of pictures of the corroded electrolysis chambers due to exposed titanium in these units. There a University of British Colombia research study on the toxicity of ionized titanium in drinking water. I have heard dozens of testimonials from people who got the EMCO Tech machines for various ailments that came back or got worse before finally being alleviated upon the purchase of an SD501. But there I go again, feeding the fire! Good luck, Rob! Beware the Kangen wave doesn’t crash down on top of you while you’re trying your best not to see it coming! Like the Navajo proverb goes, “You can’t awaken somebody who’s pretending to be asleep”!

          • Hi John:

            I love your persistence.

            I would like to talk to the people that you claim got sick drinking your competitor’s water. Surely you and your team should be able to hook me up with these people instead of saying “I have heard….”. I can assure you I would be willing to spend the time and would do so with an open mind.

            I have to ask you why it is so important to you to attack EMCO Tech with every comment. Wouldn’t you rather create a positive environment instead of trying to tear someone else’s efforts down? I suppose that the same could be said about my Part 2 of the industry review, but I dedicated most of the article and virtually all of the other articles that I write to building awareness of the importance of the industry.

            I would ask you to think about your statement about the Kangen wave and the Navajo proverb. Do you really think it is me that is viewing the world with blinders? I hope Enagic does enjoy brilliant success in the future, because that means more people will be drinking the water.

      • If the SD 501 costs $1400 to produce, then Enagic gets the award for the least efficient company with the worst understanding of economics, product positioning and marketing on the planet.

        I cannot attest to this personally, but I spoke to the operations manager at Watershed Wellness earlier this year and he has commercial invoices from the importation of all water ionizers (publicly available information) and says the SD 501 enters the US at less than $500.

        Maybe Enagic needs to mark up 2-3x cost to keep their inefficient LA office running. (I have horror stories about trying to solve customer problems and losing sales because of the lack of information … or their inability to understand what a customer was asking.) I know they clean machines for just $35 … that’s being subsidized I’m sure. (I’d love to be a fly on the wall observing the condition of the plates that come in …) And their user information is so incomplete and poorly written that tech support gets lots of calls. Until recently you had to fill out an application and fax it in, and they had a room full of young Japanese men and women entering the data into their spreadsheets for calculation of commission. You had to request a downline report that was generated each time from that system and faxed to you. Now I think you can order on line … that should save some $$.

        I recently spoke to someone who pointed out that Enagic does not use the MLM system in Japan to sell the water ionizers, and the SD 501 sells for a whole lot less. I can’t remember if she said $1700 or $2700 (in US$ equivalents), but it was at least $1000 less than here. [As you pointed out elsewhere, Rob, they were shut down by the Japan equivalent of the FTC for the MLM approach they used to sell their Ukon (tumeric) supplement … which is also sold here at an outrageous mark up.)

        • Hi Cathy:

          I have never ordered an SD501 from overseas so I don’t have a commercial invoice for the unit. However, the pricing makes perfect sense based upon everything I have learned. I bought my four month old SD501 online for $1,300, which was a good purchase at the time, as the unit was basically brand new and worked perfectly.

          Thanks for a sneak peak into the inner workings of Enagic in the USA.

    • Wow, John! What wonderful news!

      I’ve been selling Jupiter water ionizers for 11 years and in all that time I never knew I was making five hundred and sixty percent markup! Hallelujah!.. wait a minute. How come I’m not rich?

      You’ve got your facts seriously wrong there young Fella!

      • My guess is because there are middlemen between manufacture and distribution of your ionizer. When a company is totally vertically integrated, like Enagic is, and is TRUE OEM (down to the packing material the units ship with), they own the entire process from R&M to sales. You are not selling machines by direct sales, are you? To my knowledge, Jupiter isn’t far removed from typical marketing structure where there are exporters, importers, wholesale resellers and distributors. Enagic is the exporter, importer, wholesale reseller and I am the distributor. Like Cathy says, Enagic’s sales and marketing budget is 65% of the cost of the machine, which is relatively low. Rather than pay exporters, importers, wholesale resellers, sales outlets, sales staff, etc., they make a machine with a solid margin and give the entire sales and marketing budget to the distributors. Who else gets a piece of Jupiter’s sales and marketing %, or will the company not tell you that?

        • Hi Gavin:

          Gotta agree with you on this one. According to my research, Enagic purchased the rights to 1 of 19 Toyo machines in 2001. Mr. Ochiro didn’t start selling the machines until September 2004 as he took his time to develop the very successful MLM system.

  21. To John:the ionizer which has it’s price marked up by 567% is Life Ionizers,we don’t know about the rest of them yet.I find it quite impossible to believe that some brands like Tyent have their prices marked up by 5 to 6 times, as I can assume from it’s plate area.Calculations are shown below.

    Enagic SD501 plate area:245 square inches
    Tyent MMP 9090 Turbo plate area:315 square inches

    Let the amount of material used by SD501’s plates be 245 units. Since Tyent’s plates are mesh hybrid,they would have 25% more surface area,so materials needed=315/5 x4=252 units
    So adding all the other parts,manufacturing costs would be roughly equal.

    To Rob:Thanks for attempting to answer my questions.Real pity you couldn’t answer my first question though,as it would put down(or confirm) some rumours that water from some ionizers with plates from EMCO Tech contain titanium.Which was exactly what John was saying above.
    About the AOX water ionizers,I think it might be manufactured in my country,Singapore,but the ‘comparison to other brands’ in it’s FAQ kind of confuses me.So I hope someone can explain if it works by antioxidant filters.I think you might want to wait until next year before getting Dr Peggy Parker’s report(it does get updated) as inside it are still the older models of other brands.And a while ago platinium costs about $1764 per ounce while for titanium i think it’s about $400 per lb for food grade and $1400 per lb for medical grade,so try conting the manufacturing cost again.Have you tried editing the Wikipedia article on water ionizers?I would like to but I’m afraid of accidently making mistakes that mislead the public.

    • Hi Si Yuan:

      The contributions being made by you and John are helping this blog. It is through open and honest discussion that we can get the facts out in the open. When people have access to the facts, they can make better decesions.

      I don’t have an answer about how the average consumer can measure for the presence of titanium. However, I’m fairly certain that any certified testing facility can provide test results for a minimal fee. There is a company that operates near where I live and I will contact them today.

      I find this entire conversation about plates to be a bit overkill. The function of the plates is to act as a surface where the electricity interacts with the water. Both platinum and titanium are excellent conductors of electricity. The function of the platinum is simply to provide a protective coating so that any colloids that break off over time will be platinum as opposed to titanium. Colloids are microscopic particles of a metal that can break away from the metal during electrolysis. The reason colloids are created is due to the fact that a surge of electricity causes sub-atomic particles to move faster and therefore move further away. When a particle moves too far away, it can break away. You might want to think about this in terms of ping pong balls in a case used during a game of bingo. When the air is turned on, the balls start flying around the case. The plate makers make the plates out of titanium to keep costs down and then coat the plates by either dipping them in platinum or spray them with platinum.

      Ronnie Ruiz of Chanson has told me (and everyone who will listen) that Enagic has the worst coating of platinum in the industry. He insists that you can see the titanium showing throught the weak areas of platinum coating on the Enagic plates with a 5000 power microscope. I don’t know whether to believe Ronnie or not as he changes his stories to serve his needs. However, I do believe that the plate issue is far more of a marketing ploy that it is an issue. In fact, if the machines used less power, the entire platinum coating issue would probably be irrelevent.

      The cost of materials used in a product is also somewhat irrelevent. The real issues are: how well a machine works, and long it works, and if the company provides a warranty to replace any faulty parts.

      If the water ioinzer companies would focus on the fact that their machines work and people should be drinking the water, the world would be a better place. The squabbling between companies only serves to confuse the public.

      I don’t want to pick on Enagic, but their distributors spend so way way way too much time trying to differentiate their machine from others in an attempt to justify the massive price difference when they should be focusing on the benefits of the water. If the Enagic corporation offered its products to its MLM team for $1,000 and the team charged $500 in commissions, then the public could buy the machines for $1,500 and everybody wins. It that happened, the Enagic dealers would have to sell a lot more units to make the same amount of money, but they would also be able to attract many more buyers because the machine is more affordable. The ultimate result would be a lot more people drinking the water……….which is my solution!

    • SD501 plate area is 465.5 sq. inches. Of 99.99% pure medical grade platinum electroplated onto medical grade titanium using state-of-the-art technology nobody else has in the world. Enagic has actually electroplated their platinum onto business cards at trade expos. They’ve been at the top of their game longer than anybody else has been playing. For the first 17 years of Enagic’s 36 year existence, they only made ionizers for hospitals.

      • Hi John:

        Enagic has platinum covered business cards??? No wonder they charge so much for their machines :)

    • Hi Lee Si Yuan,

      Would you please post your dimensions of the plates, ie how you arrived at 245 sq. inches and 315 sq. inches?

    • And using the mesh technology, according to metallurgical engineers, actually cuts the amount of metal used by as much as half. All of the EMCO Tech machines use roughly half as much metal as Enagic, and that metal is of a lower purity (Enagic’s titanium costs 10X more than EMCO Tech’s). And the methods for applying the platinum is a “spray-and-bake” method, according to that metallurgical engineer.

      • Hi John:

        I don’t know how the amount or the quality of metal is relevent, or how much a company spends on its plates for that matter as there are far more important factors when it comes to producing results. The real issue is whether a machine works. I have tested 11 different brands in my lab and they all work.

        Every machine produces excellent pH and ORP output that is good for our health. That is what is important to me as opposed to which person or company wins the sale.

        • Have you done any testing on Water Revolution’s systems? They make alkaline water WITHOUT electricity, with amazing numbers to show for it. It can easily stand up to Enagic and any other system, but it sells for as low as $350. There is a ripple effect in the energy, measured using kinesiology, in the water created by systems that use electricity. In Water Revolution’s water, however, the energy of the water is much stronger and has no breaks or ripples. I was just curious if you have heard of WR or have done any personal tests of them. I’m wondering, b/c at such a low price point, it all sounds too good to be true. I want to be sure that what I’m selling truly is as cutting edge and top-of-the-line as the company claims it to be. :)

          • Hi Amber:

            Thanks for both of your comments about the Revolutionizer. I haven’t heard much about them lately other than IonWays was seeking an injunction against the company. I read something from Jay Hare about how IonWays had achieved an important step in shutting down the Revolution people who left IonWays to start up their own company. Healthy competition is good for the consumer, so I hope that the Revolution MLM’ers are allowed to continue to spread the word.

            I would be careful about making claims such as perfect results in regards to removing contaminants, as there is no such thing. I hope the Revolution people post indepenedent lab results as it would add to their credibility. Making claims that the machine will easily stand up to an Enagic (or any other electric water ionizer) is just not true in terms of producing the positive benefits of acidic water, or the speed with which pesticides can be removed from fruits and vegetables that have been sprayed. Please don’t fall into the old old old trap of the water ionizer companies that make false claims and accusations. I would recommend that you stick to talking about the wonderful benefits of your affordable natural antioxidant filters….stick to that story and you company should be very successful

      • Using half as much metal … that’s called smart engineering, John. Reducing the cost and improving the performance … it’s what’s happening globally in technology in case you haven’t noticed.

        As I noted in a comment elsewhere, we liked the approach Vollara used with Direct Disk Ionization because less material was used to achieve the desired result. That’s being environmentally and economically responsible.

        I don’t know if you can substantiate your claim about the cost of the titanium – if you could, please do. And I do agree that I don’t want titanium alloy colloids in my water … nor do I want pure titanium in my water, and I have seen worn Enagic plates. Again, I said this elsewhere, how does the consumer know when a plate needs to be replaced? What factors accelerate plate deterioration? Does Enagic inform their customers about how to tell? Do they nudge them to do the proper cleaning? Filter change? These are all legitimate questions that are far more important than if they use 99% pure expensive titanium. In my experience as an inquisitive, persistent, active, informed customer, they were of little help. God help those without persistence or some level of education about the technology and what to ask.

        • Maybe globally in some technologies, but not in medical devices. Medical devices are the one place you don’t cut corners. If I’m going to purchase only one ionizer in my lifetime, I want it to last. Other ionizers’ electrolysis chambers can’t even be taken apart so the plates can be reconditioned. When all of those minerals start sticking to your “peaks and valleys” your ionizer stops ionizing the water, and what is your company going to do to rectify the situation? I have heard countless owners of ionizers with mesh plates that simply stopped working (and some that even got heavy metal poisoning from exposed titanium). Sure, you can save money and buy a sub-compact car that costs a lot less to make, but if it was between that sub-compact and a Rolls Royce and my health depended upon it, spare no expense, lady. When the other companies are as frank about their cost of manufacturing and everything else as Enagic is, the price issue will be settled once and for all. Until then, coupled with the ignorance in the ionizer marketplace, we’re still going to have people trying to convince us that the sub-compact is just as good and does everything that the Rolls Royce does. Some even try to convince us that the sub-compact is better and does more than the Rolls Royce.

          • Hi Indigo:

            Once again, I have to respectfully disagree when you start making negative claims about other brands. I sold and serviced a lot of machines when I was in the business, and I speak to many of the service people in the industry for a number of different brands. From my own personal experiences and from the experiences of people that I talk to that I trust (the techies, not the salespeople), I can tell you with the utmost in sincerity that the machines all work. The machines all have good warranty programs.

            What I’m saying takes nothing away from Enagic’s products, as they are great as well. It just bugs me when people start bashing other products when they haven’t tested them or experienced them for themselves. Anyone can play the “I heard a story” game. If anyone on this blog has a legitimate complaint about their personal machine, I’m willing to listen, and maybe I can help out by making a call for them. But, let’s not be bashing each other on heresay.

          • Hi Indigo,

            Welcome to the blog. This is a wonderful place to interact and make our industry better.

            Since you market the Enagic machines, would you mind getting a parts list and manufacturing cost breakdown from corporate and emailing it to me? Since you said they are an open book it should be no problem. I’ll scan it and post it on my website to once and for all stop all the fighting about inflated costs.

            My email is iesolutions@ymail.com.

          • Hi Gabe:

            I should have thought of that. You are so smart :)

            If Enagic does present the information, which I doubt, it will definitely spark a lively debate…which is the point of all of this

          • To GABE, since I can’t seem to reply directly to his post (hasn’t been approved yet?), feel free to do your own research. Just call Enagic up and ask them for yourself. That’s what I did. They’re kinda busy this week since they set all-time records in December and there’s still some loose ends from that to tie up, but if you have a little patience, a desire to learn and willingness to follow the evidence wherever it takes you, then you can easily learn the answers to your questions from the company itself!

          • Hi Everybody:

            I’m swamped with stuff right now as I have four articles in different stages of research and writing, and I have 13 more in my “To Do” list. I will just approve stuff as long as it is respectful and adds something to readers…and nobody tries to dominate the board.

            I hope everyone understands the following:

            1) we all have the same job…to educate others about the water
            2) the market is far bigger than anyone can supply, so think ABUNDANCE instead of SCARCITY
            3) use this forum to share and learn
            4) focus on building awareness, not tearing each other down

    • To my knowledge, these machines are all essentially the same since they are produced by the same manufacturer. If they all have the same components, just a different branding, I don’t think Tyent would be able to get away with a far smaller markup than Life. They’re essentially the same machine inside.

  22. My goodness…my wife thinks I’m obsessed. Don’t you guys ever sleep?

    Just a couple of comments.

    1. Dr. Parker has cut ties with Enagic. She wasn’t seen as unbiased, which she indicated was interfering with her real goals (see http://www.kangenwtr.com/ ). I’m not sure her “report” will be updated. Which is sad, because from what I’ve read, it needs to be. She has a very incorrect understanding of the stomach and our digestive process. At least according to Dr. Robert Young.

    2. I’m not defending Tyent and Life…but if you do a Better Business search, they each have a better rating than Enagic. I know that doesn’t mean everything, but look at the complaint reports. There is a lot of similarities. None of which by the way are “there product caused me to get sick”.

    3. John…I learned a few things from my MLM days. First of which is everything we hear within those circles is not always true. You have to take it with a grain of salt and understand that those preaching on the conference calls are often more passion than fact. MLMs run on motivation. Every MLM company believes their product is the best. It doesn’t matter whether it’s vitamins, travel, juice or water. Because face it…we all want the pride that comes with being associated with the #1 whatever…and justification for why we buy their product.

    Your passion for water has to supersede your passion for the SD-501.

    #4. I have a solution for 98% of the argument here. Get rid of plates, power supplies, cleaning solutions, maintenance, electricity and source water problems. I was skeptical of the new antioxidant filters because the science was foreign to what I had learned about ionized water previously. That is until I tried one. For the last 2 months it’s the only water I’ve consumed. No return of previous symptoms and great pH and stable ORPs. I’ve given out a ton of water and sold numerous filters as well. It works and each person has been very pleased.

    Just think about the impact we could have on this country if we stopped pissing on each other about plate size and who’s ionizer is better. Change the story that’s being told on the web that we are a bunch of snake oil salesmen who sell expensive things that don’t work.

    Just give people we love the water. Use their understanding of the need for filtered water and give them a clean, effective and affordable solution to their problem. It really isn’t that hard to do anymore.

    • Hi Gabe:

      I think your comments are the best I have ever read on this site or any other site.

      If you have read Dr. Parker’s report, I would appreciate your comments. You have proven to be an extremely trustworthy and competent commentator on this site. I’m swamped right now and just won’t have time to get to it next week. I’m working on my year end review articles and the Enagic and Tyent issues.

      I will be happy when everyone that says they care about helping others start focusing on helping others instead of resorting to school yard bullying tactics .

      I will be happy when everyo

      • You need more sleep. :)

        Thanks Rob.

        • Hi Gabe:

          I sleep really well, but many nights are short. Living in the east means that I’m up late Skyping with people on the west coast, or Australia, or Asia. After a lifetime of getting up early, my body just automatically wakes up.

          The good news is that I have never felt better. I’m training and riding one or two hours most days and I have more energy that I did 15 years ago. Being pain free is a gift that everyone takes for granted until it’s gone. Becoming pain free after living in pain for years is….there are really no words to describe it.

    • What has your water filter done for you personally to change your life?

      • Hi John:

        I have explained my personal story many times on this blog. You can also see it in the “About Me” or whatever Bernard (my web friendly buddy) guy has called it.

        In summary, I suffered from acid reflux for about 15 and had been on Pantoloc to control it for 7 or 8 years. The problem went away within a week of being on the water. I also suffered from very severe arthritis for a couple of years and had been on Arthrtec for 1 1/2 years. My arthritis went away within a month. I also suffered from ragweed alergy from the middle of August until the first frost each year and was taking the prescription needles plus decongestants without much success. The water made the allergy go away. I have been on the water for 2 1/2 years and life is good.

      • I have an SD501. In 6 months, arthritic, sports-injured knees, chronic sinus infections, allergies, depression, sleeplessness, low energy, etc. all totally evaporated. I was chubby from the time I was a child. I always had to work harder than everybody else to lose weight. Dieting and exercise only seemed to temporarily take the pounds off. After less than 6 months on Kangen water, I lost over 30 pounds. For the first time in my life, I had to WORK to gain weight this Winter. I ate everything I could this Winter. Extra meals, extra portions, extra desserts, wine, lack of exercise and all of the other things that would have caused me to gain dozens and dozens of pounds in the past only amounted to a paltry 11 pounds this Winter. Another guy who got a machine from me lost 15 pounds during his 30-day trial without changing his diet whatsoever. I have watched strangers’ lives change before my very eyes in 30 days of drinking water 24-48 hours old before they got their machine. The SD501 is the biggest blessings I could ever have asked for in my life. I know that I’ll have unlimited amounts of water for 30 years or more because the SD501 is built to last that long.

        • Hi Indigo:

          Great post! This is what the blog should be about.

          I too started out with water from an Enagic SD501, and the water from the machine convinced a total skeptic like me that buying a machine was a necessity, not a luxury. Too bad for Enagic that the price of their machine was so high that I purchased a different brand. My wife asked me “how can you be so cheap when this is about our health?”. Fortunately, the other machine produced the same results and I have not taken one pill from any of my prescriptions in the past 2 1/2 years.

    • “”Dr. Parker has cut ties with Enagic.””

      nonsense, if you read her site, it is quite obvious that she is still pushing propaganda and reaping money from this unethical and dishonest marketing machine… with her libelous and incredibly unscientific “report”… astonishing that anyone in enagic can actually present this info with a straight face…. it is that bad…

      Again, DO YOUR DUE DILIGENCE FOLKS…. it is NOT factual in ANY sense of the word…

      her report is full of nonsense, for her to describe herself as a “researcher” is the height of idiocy…

      not one claim is backed up with facts… not a single one.

      Here are a couple of pieces I have written on this nonsense emanating from enagic…

      Now we come to Dr Peggy Parker, and her unscientific and baseless claim that the tourmaline in our Biostone filters is leaching poisonous metals into the water, and could harm or kill people. See the previous points on water tests for your refutation of this canard. I might also add that the tourmaline in the Biostone filters is encased in ceramic beads, and never comes in contact with the water, but even if it did, tourmaline has a hardness rating that is harder than Titanium, and it would not leach anything anyway. Dr. Parker SEEMS to know what she is talking about, like Laurie Tauscher, but doesn’t have a clue in many instances, you have to conclude she either is repeating what someone else told her and she believes is true, or she is intentionally lying. I don’t know which. One thing is true; she is saying things that are libelous and untrue. Here’s a bit more on the tourmaline canard for you:
      Recently some Enagic™ or Kangen™ reps have been attacking the Biostone filter. They are claiming that because the Biostone contains tourmaline and one of the building blocks of tourmaline is aluminum, that ipso facto the Biostone filter releases aluminum into the drinking water. Nothing could be further from the truth, but then again, some Enagic™ reps do not always present the facts accurately or correctly – especially when it comes to Jupiter.
      Below is a lab report on the Biostone filter. This lab report was commissioned and paid for independently (see the information under client).

      (email me for the report, gavin@gavindickinson.com)

      The report was sent to us and permission was granted to use the data.
      You can see on the report that the untreated control sample of water had a significant amount of Aluminum:
      Aluminum 438 ugl (micrograms or parts per billion); and that the Biostone filtered it down to less than was detectable <30 ugl.

      The US EPA standard on Aluminum is .05 to 0.2 mgl or milligrams per liter. That would be 150ugl allowable. A microgram is 1/1000th of a milligram. 30ugl is a level so small it can not be detected.
      So you can see that the statements made or questions raised by some Enagic™ or Kangen™ reps are completely without merit.

      This is one more example of how they perpetrate misinformation, half truths and outright fallacies.
      To take this one step further lets discuss tourmaline and why it is in the Biostone in the first place.

      Tourmaline is technically classified in the mineral group as a semi-precious gemstone of the silicate family. The term silicate is used to denote types of rock that consist predominantly of silicate minerals.

      Two of the main building blocks of tourmaline are aluminum and boron which are bonded to form a trigonal crystal system which occurs as long, prismatic and columnar crystals.
      This bonding effect which creates crystalline Tourmaline results in a very hard material with a hardness rating of 7-7.5 on the Mohs scale. To put its hardness into perspective, iron is a 4Mohs, and titanium is a 6Mohs – tourmaline being considerably harder than either. It is so hard in fact it retains its properties under enormous pressure and up to 600 degrees C.
      The tourmaline in the Biostone filter is put into a ceramic bead form. Ceramic is completely non reactive and non leaching. Many water filters employ ceramic media.

      So we can say for certain given the structure and hardness of tourmaline, the fact it is in ceramic and the attached test results, that no aluminum is released in to the water.
      Further we can show with certainty that the Biostone filter actually reduces Aluminum so significantly it is below the detectable levels.

      So why is tourmaline in the Biostone? Tourmaline has the unique property of emitting a natural form of FIR or Far Infra Red energy. The prefix 'infra' means 'below' and refers to the wavelengths that are just below the red end of the visible spectrum, hence 'infra-red'. FIR produces a form of radiant heat which is simply a form of energy that heats an object directly, without having to heat the surrounding air. The radiant properties of Infra-red occupies the portion of the electromagnetic spectrum between visible light and radio waves. There are many, many health products that employ FIR, including many water products. Water can absorb infrared rays from an external source. This phenomenon is called "resonant absorption." This absorption of the electromagnetic frequencies of FIR has an immediate and unique effect on the water, energizing the water, reducing surface tension and “conditioning” it prior to ionization.

      Dr Parker makes several other ludicrous, libelous, misleading and untrue statements in her 17 page (now updated to 20 pages) article, one that comes to mind is that our optional .01 micron filter takes out the dissolved minerals, making our machine unable to ionize the water. I am not a scientist, but I know enough to know the dissolved minerals are NOT taken out by .01 filtration… TDS (total dissolved solids) can only be removed through distillation or reverse osmosis, as far as I know…
      And we sell lots of machines with this filter, and lots of replacement .01 filters. Thousands and thousands in fact. This is again, an example of her intentionally lying, or her pretending to know something she doesn’t, and saying it anyway…. I don’t know her, but I bet she makes a LOT of money with her Enagic™ business, like Dr. Carpenter and Kevin Porter…
      Are you starting to see a pattern here, perhaps?

      Kevin Porter is a rep in the Enagic™ company, and recorded a webinar/powerpoint presentation he put on one evening, and it is available as a .wmv file for marketing to Enagic™ reps. It is about how to overcome the price objections and how to convince people the SD501 is worth 4000+ dollars. It is full of misstatements about the origin of brands, the relationship between our company and the factory, and many other things he says are just flat out made up and/or incorrect. He appears to believe what he is saying, but in so many cases throughout his presentation he is not telling the truth. These mistruths then are repeated ad nauseum by the other Enagic™ reps in the field…

      He demonizes his competitors by describing them as fat old men in tank tops, smoking cigars, sitting around a garage full of ionizers, preying on the poor unsuspecting ionizer customers, selling them inferior product… it is ghastly to listen to him. And offensive as heck.

      The biggest canard he claims as fact, without offering any evidence whatsoever, is that our electrodes are leaching titanium into the water, and poisoning people. It is ludicrous, and untrue, and I would be willing to bet he knows it is not true. And yet, our company and our reps are forced to deal with this accusation, day in and day out, because Kevin Porter is allowed by his company to make such false and damaging allegations in his efforts to represent Enagic™, and to spread his presentation far and wide for all to see and hear.
      Recent test data from testing the water from our machines is available from company headquarters in Reno, NV. Tests were conducted at the University of Nevada Reno and are all certified and accurate. No presence of titanium or anything of a harmful nature has EVER been found in the water, and none has ever been found in the water of ANY machine from our factory. New or old. In almost 30 years. Test data from prior tests is quite public information as well, and available upon request. Again, no harmful substances of any kind found in our water, in almost 30 years.
      Are you starting to see the difference between us and them? I hope so.

      We deal in facts and science, not innuendo and baseless claims… We have INTEGRITY…

      The people at Enagic™ corporate are represented to be honorable people, and I hope and would like to believe they in fact are, but we do not see them cleaning up this nonsense, in fact it keeps getting worse. And the people at Enagic™ corporate have been given a laundry list of things we object to, their response to our objections was “so sue us!”. Ethical? Hmmm.

    • I agree with you Gabe! Cut through the BS and take a serious look at the nonelectric options. And thanks Rob for all the tolerance of differing opinions here. It’s the best I’ve seen!

  23. John, You ask what has my water ionizer done to change my life?

    First off, I started with an SD501 (that I spent my rent money for the deposit on) 3.5 years ago. I had fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue, and Seasonal Depression (SAD) plus borderline diabetes, thyroid, adrenal fatigue and so on. The Enagic changed my life, no doubt. But it wasn’t a cure-all. I needed other herbal, enzyme, probiotic and hormonal adjustments to get really well. And when I moved from well water with 300+TDS to water with 30 TDS but highly alkaline (8.5+), the Enagic did not give me the same results. And it didn’t work for the people I sold it to who happened to change to a similar low mineral content water. Sometimes all we would get is -80 ORP. And yes, we called corporate, and got nowhere with tech support JapanEngrish. We did spend about $1000 on different prefilters; nothing made a difference. And my symptoms returned.

    I say this to emphasize that Rob is right when he says source water quality is 90% of the variability in how well a water ionizer works.

    On the other hand, we gave my son-in-law a lowly SUNUS unit. He was diabetic, 450+ lbs, in a wheelchair with neuropathy, fibromyalgia, depression, high blood pressure etc. He lost 55+ lbs in 3 months, got out of the wheel chair, and reduced or eliminated many meds. Go figure. A $1300 SUNUS does that? But Enagic leadership doesn’t really encourage the field to tell people about it. Wonder why?

    Now, for the rest of the story. This spring we tested a Vollara unit as we were intrigued with the cutting edge Direct Disk Ionization technology – one disk, no membranes. It blew away the Enagic ON OUR SOURCE WATER (and I freely admit it performs differently in other situations.) Got better ORP, better stability, better taste, and better results health-wise. (Symptoms that had returned, improved.) Ditto for every member of my local team … they all sold their SD 501s and bought a Vollara. Now, did it do the strong acid/alkaline as well? H* NO! If that’s what you want an ionizer for, then spend the money on a SD 501 or buy the Sanastech AlphaKing that is equivalent to the Enagic DX for $1000 less. But it did and “OK” job and I understand that we may be able to implement a solution to make it work better. And 99% of MY prospects just want good drinking water.

    Now, the final chapter. Been drinking the alkaStream water and I am again blown away with the results. My symptoms are continuing to improve … I am losing weight again. I suspect that the presence of available excess H (created through the magnesium-catalyzed reaction as described by Hayashi) is the reason … none of the conventional ionizers produce stable free hydrogen. The fact that they produce it is irrelevant if you have to drink the water as it comes out of the hose. Or maybe it’s because I am not consuming clouds of colloidal nano metals. Maybe MY body doesn’t like that. Who knows.

    The moral of my story? Buy what you can afford, and know that if you get a conventional ionizer you MUST have prefilters for it to work effectively. (And clean your machine, and change your filters and … and….. and) Anyone who can afford a smart phone and service can afford a non-electric ionizer. No brainer.

    Get healthy and your life and bank balance improves … it’s that simple. If I can buy 10 alkaStreams for the price of one SD501 and GIVE them to my family who have resisted the 4K, 2K, 1K price point … why wouldn’t I?

    • Hi Cathy:

      Thanks for your contribution. I hope you will allow me to put your comments on our testimonial page.

      • Feel free to put them anywhere and everywhere!

        And yes, re: Sanstec pricing, I mean RETAIL price, which in this crazy marketing world is never the real price since every traditional marketer thinks discounting is the way to go. I just bought all my clothes for the year at 70-80% off … what IS the real price?

        • Hi Cathy:

          Great point about the “REAL” price. Funny how buyers and sellers see the real price as something different, especially when it comes to the BIG items like a house. Nice grab on the clothing :)

    • True electrolyzed reduced water will change the world health care systems as we know them. True hexagonal water, which takes the power and plate composition that Enagic has, is necessary for the sacred geometrical superstructure of DNA. The structure of your DNA will determine how well you harmonize with the coming changes. Structured DNA will be activated at a faster rate than abnormal, unstructured DNA, just like an antenna that is extended picks up more signals.
      Banish judgement, worry and guilt from your awareness and your path will be considerably lighter. I have seen the future, and Enagic is at the finish line. I must leave you blog now. I will return in the future.

      In True Health and Freedom,

      John Titor

      • Hi John:

        Thanks for your contibutions over the last couple of days. I look forward to your return.

      • OK, we have a crystal ball reader here! That Enagic wave is a Tsunami and it wiped out the rest of the ionizer world!

        Even though John has left, I MUST comment. Can’t leave that comment hanging. He’s talking about unscientific metaphysical/spiritual DNA activation and ascension out of this material plane, not scientific DNA. No judgment here, just clarifying for the readers who don’t know the term.

        Dr. Mu Shik Jhon author of The Water Puzzle and the Hexagonal Key is the person responsible for research on hexagonal water. Enagic will not allow dealers/distributors to use that term because they cannot prove their water is hexagonal and because someone has a trademark on it. I know, because we had to take it out of all of our publications 2.5 years ago. I also know that even the term microclustered is risky to use because it can only be inferred by Hz changes using an electron microscope, and no one can PROVE their brand of ionized water is more hexagonal, more microclustered, or whatever, than anyone elses’.

        Is ionizing water the only way to get hexagonal water? NO. Hexagonal structure is the natural form of water – discovery by researchers studying Hunza water – and minerals like silica and magnesium help create that molecular structure. (You can find all this in publications now available at http://www.eions.net) According to Dr. Jhon, you can recreate that structure with either magnetics or electricty (ionization/electrolysis) and he actually endorsed/preferred magnetics. I believe he was a consultant to Nikken several years ago. [He is deceased now, so I can’t ask him.]

        So this is another red herring – a false distinction/differentiation that cannot be proven one way or another. Again, I love my SD 501. And I love what I am finding with alkaStream. To me, it’s a more natural way to produce nature’s perfect water … alkaline minerals and hydroxyl ions, free active hydrogen, antioxidant, and restructured. Hunza water wasn’t made with electrolysis ;-).

        • Hi Marissa:

          Thanks again for your comments.

          Some of John’s comments about his ability to see into the future certainly invite a healthy degree of skepticism. However, I would rather focus on what he has contributed. I believe his opinions have been influenced by people that are incredibly biased, but I do appreciate his passion and his desire to help others with the water.

          Thanks for sharing your information on hexagonal water.

        • Hydrogen sticks actually end up costing more than the SD501 over the 15 year minimum life span of the SD501. Just looking at Living Water USA, my cost is $84.90 per stick ($79.95 + $4.95 shipping). Based on my reading and the amounts of water I consume to maintain therapeutic hydration, I need to replace my stick every 6 months. That means that in 15 years, I will spend over $2500 on hydrogen sticks JUST FOR ME! If I have a partner, that’s almost $5000. If I have 2 children, that’s almost $10,200. It’s just not cost effective or sustainable. This only creates water for the owner to drink. My SD501 let’s me make unlimited amounts of water to give away to everybody who’s willing to drink it. There isn’t another ionizer out there that can make these amounts of water and last for more than a year or two. At the end of 15 years, Enagic will recondition their plates to like-new condition for just $40. Do any of the other ionizers out there even offer this? Seems to me that most of the other ionizers’ distributors have taken their sites down and changed their numbers LONG before their clients’ warranties are even expired.

          • Hi Indego. Lovely colour btw :)

            But as I understand it…. it is not fair to compare a hydrogen stick with an ionizer machine.
            The stick offers the opportunity to take a bottle of ionized water with you, where the water from any household machine fails to keep the good quality of a longer period of time.

            You should instead compare ionizer machine with the Antioxidant filter instead….
            A cost of about 500$ with a filter that may last about a year, perhaps half the time depending of the source water. I cannot remember how many thousands of litres one filter can take or how much a replacement filter costs …
            I don´t believe it would be so far out by saying, in the right source conditions a family of 4 could use one filter throghout the whole year…. I´ll leave the facts to others to calculate more thoroughly :)

          • Hi Dan…and Indigo.

            Comparing an ionizer with a hydrogen stick is apples to oranges. But in my opinion, so is the comparison between antioxidant filters with electric ionizers.

            Ionizers don’t filter very well and often require a pre-filter costing several hundred $$ more. Ionizers produce water ranging from 2.5 – 12ish. Ionizers need electricity and waste water. Ionizers have to be religiously cleaned and do wear out over time. Faster without a pre-filter. Their performance varies over time and source water. They are larger and contain electronic screens, pumps and power supplies. Each of which has to be considered in a warranty. But they create water faster and are great for larger environments. Locker rooms, health clubs, etc.

            Sticks offer zero filtration. As Indigo says, they are not cost effective. Especially for those with chronic health issues, because the manufacturer recommends 2-3 sticks per person for them. But they do create quality pH, ORP and free hydrogen. They are good to travel with and drop in a bottle of water from the airport, hotel, etc.

            Antioxidant filters are dramatically different. I had a client ask me this morning, “so this is really just a high quality filter with the health benefits added on?” In essence yes. You can’t find a better filter for the price. For years, many ionizer dealers have pushed ionization over filtration. “Tap is fine…and look, this has a filter inside…or 2”. Filter dealers on the other hand knock ionizers because most don’t start with clean water. They also have the upper hand because everyone knows clean is most important and educating on alkalinity/ionization is an uphill battle. How many people do you see calling filters a scam?

            In my humble opinion, the Antioxidant filters are the future of ionization AND filtration. $399 for clean, pure, 9.5pH water with ORPs ranging between -200 and -400. Zero fluoride, pesticides, VOCs, THMs, Chloramines, etc. Small enough to toss in the carrying bag they come with and into the luggage or trunk. No changes in performance despite the source water. Swap out for a new filter at the 12-month, 1300 gallon point (or 6-months if you want to maintain fluoride free) for $99 and you have a brand new “machine”. Ionizer filters cost that much or more. BTW…Dan is correct, that’s plenty for a family of 4 for a year.

            We can keep arguing about whose plates are better, who has the best celebrity endorsement and keep recruiting new dealers because of how much $$$ they can make…or we can stop pissing around and actually help people.

            Oh…Indigo. Did you get that price sheet from Enagic yet?

          • Feel free to do your own research. Just call Enagic up and ask them for yourself. That’s what I did. They’re kinda busy just now since they set all-time sales records in December (over 5000 machine sales!) and there’s still some loose ends from that to tie up, but if you have a little patience, a desire to learn and willingness to follow the evidence wherever it takes you, then you can easily learn the answers to your questions from the company itself! They’re very helpful people.
            And until the Alkastream filter (or any of the other ionizers for that matter) is being widely used in hospital treatment settings of world-leading health care systems, with endorsements from 35-year board-certified vascular surgeons, world-class gastroenterologists with over 35 years of experience (and 0% cancer remission rates), world-famous weight loss experts, professional athletes and teams like the New York Yankees, tai chi masters, raw foodists, nutritionists, fitness gurus and other assorted health care professionals, etc., etc., I think I’ll stick with my lifetime investment in the SD501!

          • Rob, this is a good example of the passion, and misinformation, that abounds among Enagic distributors. I love them, they are my friends yet today, but they don’t check their facts. They just repeat what they are told.

            Indigo,, when I was an Enagic dealer, I was never able to confirm that the Enagic SD501 or any other unit was actually used in hospitals. In fact, I was told by a corporate person that they used commercial ionizers in the hospitals, and the home water ioniezr … the DX … was developed due to physician demand for their patients so they didn’t have to line up for water. The SD 501 was developed for the US market and the compensation plan implemented here.

            I don’t know what your definition of “widely” is, but 35 hospitals in Japan is not “wide” to me. It’s signficant, but it’s still a small slice of the professional medical/hospital presence world-wide.

            Your comments about endorsements are a red herring. The world class vascular surgeon and gastroenterologist are paid consultants/advisors to Enagic. In fact, Dr Shinya was using the Sanastec model until he got some recent accomodation from Enagic … and when contacted in previous years would NOT endorse the SD501 or Enagic because he could get Sanastec for less. And if you spend any time on the internet you will find weight loss experts, fitness gurus, health care professionals etc. endorsing other ionizers, and yes, they will be talking about alkaStream real soon, I’m sure. Alkastream has the advantage of using the magnesium catalyst method ‘endorsed’ by Dr Hayashi – the Father of Water Ionizers – who actually does not and has not for a decade recommended ANY water ionizer and actually sued Enagic for implying that he endorsed kangen water ;-). So I’m confident that alkaStream water will have the same effect. It has for me ;-).

            By the way the weight loss expert, Jillian Michaels, also endorses Brita. She ‘mentioned’ kangen water once in an interview … if you tried to pin her down, I bet her agent would not allow her to talk about it today because today she gets PAID for endorsements. And be careful about saying the New York Yankees endorse Enagic … they sent a cease and desist letter to the person who put out the news release about Shan Stratton that implied that they did endorse kangen water.

          • Hi Cathy:

            Thanks for the info…..it will definitely save me time as I don’t have to start checking the “facts” to see if they are actually facts.

          • I’ve done lots of research…trust me.

            As an Enagic rep, I think the burden should fall on you to prove your claims. However, I’ll give them a call on Monday. After I speak with them I’ll post what they tell me on this forum.

            Their are plenty of other endorsements out there. Go look at Life’s page or the Chanson/Dr. Young relationship. Vollara machines are in MLB locker rooms as well. Celebrities have it great…companies give them free stuff for a picture/endorsement.

            I think you also miss the point. No one is telling you to trade in your SD-501 for an alkaStream. The water you drink is fine, maybe a little dirty unless you have a great pre-filter, but I’m sure it performs great on the pH/ORP scales. Full-spectrum ionizers still have their place. I don’t think I’d sell an alkaStream to a hospital or MLB team.

            But the other 99% of the world…you betcha.

            Which is what ionizer fundamentalists don’t understand and will therefore cause them to miss the train that’s pulling out of the station. The industry is about to change radically.

            So let me ask you. What is your ratio of water introductions to sales? How many people can’t afford one? What do you do for them? Is it right to not tell them there are other solutions out there, even if we don’t think it’s as good as the best, when we’re dealing with people’s health?

          • Hi Gabe:

            I like the fact that you say that there is still room for electrolysis based water ionizers despite the fact that you have jumped on the Alkastream “train” as you call it. I agree that there is definitely still a place for full pH spectrum water ionizers. I also agree that the Antioxidant filters are going to fill a huge gap for those that would like to buy a $4000 machine, but can’t afford to buy it, or can’t justify the expense.

          • Hi Indigo,

            As promised, I gave Enagic a call. Just so you know I’m not editing it or otherwise tainting the info, you can find the entire call from “compliance department” through hang up here –> http://wearewhatweabsorb.com/?p=1818.

          • Oh…I forgot. I also emailed this to the address you provided on your post, but it bounced back and apparently does not exist.

            Gabe

          • Gabe:

            I get the occassional comment from people who want to comment anonymously. While anonymity can create a credibility gap, it does allow people to post that might not otherwise post. Any comments that add to the discussion in a constuctive way are good in my book.

          • No problem. Go easy with it…most of the underling dealers are not purposely spreading misinformation. They just assume what they hear is accurate…a lot depends on belief.

            Just to close the loop on this. The compliance manager did call me and requested information on who and where these kinds of claims were being spread. I gave him what I had and trust that he will take action on them. He sounded very sincere.

            In light of what Enagic has gone thru in Japan, I imagine he has good reason to take it serious.

          • Rob , I have read a lot of your posts some I agree with some I believe are agenda based some are a little of both .. This being said it is in my opinion… Why are you so as you say offended by the profit range in the Enagic Machines , I agree that if there are those out there that cannot afford it then go to something of less cost , Enagic has those also … As do other companies I do not like all the smoke and mirrors in this indutry nor do I care for False Facts by deception of any company and that would include Enagic if they do that as well … I really am starting to believe that many people are misinformed .. I have no problem the cost of the Enagic units nor the profit range they afford those who wish to educate the public , the same opportunity is afforded to all who wish to partake in it ,,, and quite frankly anyone who gets the results that we all know this technology can provide is doing and injustice not sharing it with others , so if everyone who ever purchased a unit simply told someone else everyone could eventually get paid back thier investment …

            I do realize that not everyone will do so , and I do realize that there has to be other units in the market that work well , how well I do not know .. I will soon find out but I too have tested some other products and found that they do not perform even closely to what they claim .. As much as there are other good units out there, there are also junk out there …

            In my case when I find something that works works well has credibility I tend to stick with it the cost is irrelevent ,, You said it yourself Enagic is among the best of the Best , i think on another post you placed them 2nd under AlksStream which bring me back to what I would suggest is your motive … I am also Ok with your motive to market the Alka Stream Filters it is a known fact if you can take a Great Idea and make it more affordable with the same end result for less money you will make a fortune …. ( Napoleon Hill ) I would add even if you find something that may or may not be as good but poses to be a fortune can be made up until it is found out that it is not all it is cracked up to be ..

            I would also like to say I am all for a thread and a blog with helpful information but it always seems that under the surface there is always something hidden including in your writings much of which I like reading , as I can read between the lines … I am not here to cause havoc nor to argue over nuances just simply making a point.

            There is nothing wrong with Feee Enterprise and profit sharing when everyone has the same opportunity to succeed …

            Also in some of your posts about Tyent .I believe you have an Ax to grind , I think that should be left out of your decisions to evaluate , if you cannot be objective because of bad blood I sugest staying away from it altogether … It would afford you much more credibility.

            Of course your call on my suggestions and I wont be going back to dissect what I am referring to just puttin git out there … I am and Enagic Distributor and I really as a professional do not like misinformation ,,, I also am not a fan of Tyent but I really dont like the sour grapes throwing … I did meet Tyent and I have to say I was impressed and I did not find Joe to be anything close to what you described … I went to meet him in a challenge with a customer of mine that was looking at our technology ,, I have to say he was cordial , very well mannered non confrontational I was more confrontational than he was …

            Anyhow enough rambling just wanted to throw this in the ring all in all I like most posts I read here as it enlightens me as to how much some people really know and how much some really do not know …. I like the idea of capitalizing on the bigger market of those who cannot afford an Ionizer but I prefer the ionizer as first choice …

          • Hi Brian:

            Thanks for your comments. I found some of it hard to read, but I appreciate your effort. You make some really valid points and I’m the person that gave your comment the “thumbs up” that you will see as a “Like” after your comment.

            I do have an agenda. My agenda is to get a water machine in every household in Canada and the USA and Australia, and any of the other 138 countries where people are following my blog. It is costing me hundreds of thousands of dollars per year in lost income to pursue my cause, so I’m doing what I think has to be done to make my dream come true. What I think needs to be done is to make the machines available for lower prices so that people can afford them. I also think the the industry needs to “take out the trash” in terms of behavior and players so that a new breed of ethical and substantial players who care about helping others can lead the way into the future. I also think that the public needs to be educated about the benefits of the water. I’m doing my best to support those objectives.

            I believe that everyone should have access to clean healthy water, regardless of their financial position. While it would be great for everyone to have the best of the best (which I happen to believe is the EOS Platinum at the moment for $1,500, but unfortunately they are not available from a reliable source in the USA….heh EOS Hitech…are you listening?). Any other high end water ionizer with a great pre-filter system will also fit the bill, but the reality is that not many people can afford $1,500 or more for a water machine. To be more specific, not many people can justify spending $1,500 because they don’t perceive the machines to offer good value. It is not the fault of the machines, because the machines are awesome….it is the fault of the distributors for being terrible marketers. You are right that I have an axe to grind, as I have been carrying around a lot of poisonous information for a long time about the deception that the public has been subjected to.

            In regards to Joe Bocutti of Tyent, he may be a very nice man. It appears that he is very popular with the audiences ladies in his hypnotist shows. I just know a different side to the man. I don’t claim that he is wrong and I’m right or vice versa, but I just have very different goals. As a person, the man means nothing to me. As a player in the water ionizer industry, I see him as part of the problem that has hurt the industry in recent years and as an impediment of what needs to be done. I have been warned that he is gunning for me and I can see that he or his people visited my blog 7 times yesterday on a Saturday, which could only mean one thing. If Joe Bocutti decides to come after me, he gets what he deserves, which will be endless bad press and exposure from this blog and I expect from a myriad of new sites that will start popping up all over the world. If Joe Bocutti takes time to reflect upon how important he could be to development of this incredibly important industry, and makes the decision to be part of the solution, then I will be a big supporter. Hopefully you can see that it is the message that is important, not the people.

            I want to see the price of water ionizers drop down to $1,000 as soon as possible. Achieving the $1,000 price level will be difficult because the machines cost about $500 and then you have to build in the other costs such as shipping, overhead, and warranty….and profit. Every water ionizer on the market could sell for $1,000 and return a handsome profit to the company, but there would be no money for the people who are taking it to the street and educating others. The distributors could sell for $1,000 on-line because they could eliminate a sales force, but the water ionizer business is a face to face business that won’t ever get anywhere by means of internet marketing.

            A few people will research on-line and make a decision to purchase a water machine, but the other 99.9% of people out there need to see it, touch it, and drink the water to experience the benefits. The entire industry has been built on the face-to-face work done by Enagic dealers, regardless of which company makes the sale. Enagic hates the “me too” companies that contribute nothing but lower prices, and the “me too” companies hate Enagic for spreading unsubstantiated “facts” about their equipment and the equipment of others.

            Until the water machines become mainstream and are available at Costco and Walmart, a $1,000 price tag seems remote at this time. So, the next step of my agenda has kicked into gear due to the introduction of the Antioxidant Filters. The filters are not the magic bullet, but the $400 price tag for clean water that is naturally ionized is a big step in the right direction. So, of course I’m supporting them. I expect more brands of Antioxidant Filters to appear in 2011. I believe that as awareness and acceptance builds for the new filter systems, more and more people will buy the bigger machines.

            There is method to my madness. I hope others will put aside their brand allegiances and contribute to an effort that could change our world for the better.

            For my part, I will be shifting the focus of my blog away from water ionizers and on to filtration and the health benefits of proper hydration and ingesting antioxidants. The public doesn’t care about alkaline water and water ionizers. The public cares about their water being safe to drink. If I can get the public to start thinking about what they are drinking and investigate alternatives, it will only be a matter of time until people make decisions that will put money in the pockets of every dealer of every brand of machine.

          • Hi Indigo:

            Let me guess….you like Enagic :)

            I hate to pee in anyone’s cornflakes, but you have gone WAY too far with your comments. You will have to provide proof of your statements. Unless you can prove a statement such as “0% cancer remission rates”, you are being completely irresponsible. Enagic does have some endorsements, but I bet if I check with the NY Yankees, they don’t endorse Enagic.

            You have to be careful throwing claims and names around.

            I appreciate your enthusiasm, but unless you can prove your claims I think you are opening yourself up to a world of pain.

          • Hi Indigo:

            Once again, I love your enthusiam and passion.

            I feel the same way, but instead of thinking “KANGANIZE THE WORLD”, my thought process is more along the lines of “helping the world to understand the benefits of a healthy diet and drinking alkaline ionized water”. If Enagic works for you, I’m good with that.

            Let’s just keep to the facts and embrace the value of the work that is being done by the other companies as well.

          • Hope you are still following this thread, Indigo. Gabe followed your suggestion and had a conversation with Enagic corporate. And unfortunately, they were not as helpful, transparent and forthcoming as you believed they would be. He has posted the conversation recording here and on his blog. They will not provide documentation for the statements you and others have made regarding cancer remission, superiority of the plates, superiority of the water, or pretty much anything except to confirm 8 points x $285 for commission payout on the SD501 …or $2280. That’s 57% going to multiple (up to 8 levels) individuals for each sale, leaving 43% for other bonuses, overhead, and manufacturing cost. So they pay out in commission more than most ionizers retail for. So to say that the compensation plan is not the reason for the high price is simply silly or naive. They could pay out $1280 per machine sold ($160 per point) and cut the price by $1oo0! I would have still been excited to earn that!

          • Hi Indigo:

            I’m not trying to pick a fight with you or anyone else, but I can’t just let people make unsubstantiated claims. If you can back up the claims, we will all be better for having the information. I love the passion and effort of Enagic dealers, but I take issue with unsubtantiated claims about their own machines, or the machines of their competitors.

            Enagic dealers have a right to feel “picked on” by their competitors because it is true. However, we have a “chicken and egg” thing going on here. If Enagic could back up all the statements of “fact” that they present, I don’t think that they would receive a fraction of the flak that they contend with.

            Please provide supporting evidence of the following statements that you have made in your comment:

            1) “There isn’t another ionizer out there that can make these amounts of water and last for more than a year or two”

            I don’t agree with the statement. As long as people replace their filters and pay attention to proper maintenance protocols, many machines will produce an ample supply of great water for years.

            2) “At the end of 15 years, Enagic will recondition their plates to like-new condition for $40. Do any of theother ionizers out there even offer this?”

            Enagic only started selling machines in 2004, so we will all have to wait and see if Enagic is still around 15 years from now. In addition, Enagic is repairing plates at their repair facility on an ongoing basis, and the plates are certainly not 15 years old. I suspect that Enagic plates wear out much faster than the plates form other machines in the past few years because of the excess use of power used by the machines. I also suspect that the salt solution added by users to achieve the extreme pH values contribute to the degradation of the plates. So, if you are trying to say that Enagic plates last 15 years, I need to see proof of that.

            3) “Seems to me that mostof the other ionizers’ distributors have taken their sites down and changed their numbers LONG before their clients’ warranties are even expired”

            Could you please provide examples of this. Enagic has only been around for 6 years while other companies such as IonWays have been around for much longer.

            The only company that I know of that has left their customers “High and Dry” is Waterforlife USA. Tyent has moved in to take over KYK, so I assume they will look after the previous KYK customers. Even if Tyent drops KYK like they did with IonQuench, I assume KYK (or EOS who manufactured machines) will find another dealer, and they will certainly be able to provide parts as they are good companies that supply markets worldwide. The real problem is the undercapitalized American distributors, not the Asian manufacturers.

            There are a number of other brands that offer lifetime guarantees on all parts including the plates. They also offer guarnatees on labour ranging from 5 years to a lifetime.

  24. Wow!Just one day and the page is spammed!That’s a good sign. 😀
    Quote by Cathy, “Using half as much metal … that’s called smart engineering, John. Reducing the cost and improving the performance … it’s what’s happening globally in technology in case you haven’t noticed.”

    I would like to comment that usually,that is the case.However,while I think that wire mesh can conduct more electricity,sometimes it is possible that some inner parts of the plate are not coated or coated thinly.Then the higher conductivity will break down the platinium more quickly,exposing the titanium faster.Not sure about mesh hybrid though.

    “Ronnie Ruiz of Chanson has told me (and everyone who will listen) that Enagic has the worst coating of platinum in the industry. He insists that you can see the titanium showing throught the weak areas of platinum coating on the Enagic plates with a 5000 power microscope. I don’t know whether to believe Ronnie or not as he changes his stories to serve his needs. However, I do believe that the plate issue is far more of a marketing ploy that it is an issue. In fact, if the machines used less power, the entire platinum coating issue would probably be irrelevent.”- Rob Thomas

    Well,who knows how long he used the machine(with or without cleaning the plates with the acid solution) to take those photos.Nevermind Rob,let’s hope you have been cleaning the plates of all the ionizers properly before sending the water produced for testing.But the ionizer you use most frequently should not be tested,as the titanium would probably be exposed by now,regardless of brand.Although,Ronnie’s words are usually at least partially true,just that they facts are edited.

    To John:For the Enagic SD501 total plate area,here goes: 5 inches x 7 inches x 7 plates=245 square inches

    As for the Tyent MMP 9090,it can be found everywhere on the net,though how reliable is it we don’t really know.Doubt they would lie about this though.

    Happy New Year everyone!

    • Hi Si Yuan:

      I spent a day in a factory in Busan with the man that makes the majority of plates used in water ionizers made in Korea. He showed me all of the different plates that he made for the different companies. To the best of my knowledge, the plates are made first and the platinum coating is applied afterwards for all of the leading brands. There is a lot of misguided information on the internet about the applicaton of coatings by people who have never bothered to open up an ionizing chamber or investigate the reality of the situation.

      Ronnie is Ronnie. He is very knowledgable and is a hard working man who is trying to build a company that will provide for he and his wife. I have no problem with that. I would never rely upon what Ronnie says if their is any possible way that the information he provides could be manipultated in such a way that it would provide his company with an advantage. My understanding is that Ronnie gets all his information about Enagic plates from another company.

      The platinum coating on plates will eventually break down on every machine, but the process can be delayed if the amount of power used is minimized as much as possible.

      I understand the EOS is also coming out with a 9 plate Turbo machine as well. The company says that they need to compete with similar products offered by Tyent etc. What a silly waste of resources and money.

      Happy new year to you as well, as it is actully January 1 now where you live.

    • Enagic figures their plate size the same way everybody else does, which means counting 2 sides of each plate (7 X 5 X 2) X 2 sides = 490 sq. in.

      • Hi Indigo:

        Am I missing something here, or is it the “new” math? When does 7x5x2x2=490 ?

        • My mistake. 7 plates, 7×5 each with 2 sides. 2(7(7X5))=490.

          • Hi Indigo

            I was just spoofin’ ya :)

            Sometimes I just have to throw in a little light humor amongst all the nastiness. We are all on the same team…the team that educates others about the benefits of the water

  25. But of course,it’s normal to spread rumours to get sales(not that I approve of it).By the way,is EOS from Water for Life USA?Because if yes,then I think they already rolled out a 9-plate model.To me,there is really no need to,as some notes I’ve read said that about 1000 cm square plate area should be enough.Not sure if that is accurate though.

  26. “”When all of those minerals start sticking to your “peaks and valleys” your ionizer stops ionizing the water, and what is your company going to do to rectify the situation? I have heard countless owners of ionizers with mesh plates that simply stopped working (and some that even got heavy metal poisoning from exposed titanium). “”

    Rob, why do you allow this obviously dishonest propaganda to be posted?

  27. OK, I agree with Rob. Since I wasn’t personally sickened by another machine, I won’t speak to hearsay.
    Let’s cut to the chase. Let’s focus on what we do know, which is what surgeons, physicians, nutritionists, weight loss experts, tai chi masters, etc. endorse any of the other machines. Which of these other machines have been used in hospitals? What evidence or testimony from the medical profession is there to corroborate the fact that the machines make water that is “medically effective”, as John writes?
    And nobody has responded to my comment about the cumulative cost of hydrogen sticks.

  28. Gabe, as far as the compliance manager goes, don’t hold your breath… my company has sent lists of people and their objectionable behavior to Enagic….all violations of their own compliance policies, and most leaving the company and perpetrators WIDE open to lawsuits… or at the least just downright nasty and in poor taste. Enagic corp’s response was “so sue us”.

    Perhaps this will change. I would really enjoy it if I did not have to spend half my day, literally every day, dealing with this nonsense about bigger electrodes and medical grade this and that. It grinds on a guy after so many years, you know?

    Again, good work. Who would have thought they would answer even the questions they did?

    very good stuff…

    • You may be right and I may be too naive. We’ll see. I can also appreciate the frustration you must feel. You’ve been at it much longer than me.

      I was actually kind of shocked they answered as well.

      Thanks Gavin.

    • If you want to stop the cr*p in the industry, start filing complaints with the FTC. And be ready to clean up your own act in all ways because they will look at everyone. (Not that you aren’t 100% honest …. but are all your dealers?)

      I was amazed that the Enagic compliance representative could not, would not or was not allowed to answer the reasonable questions Gabe posed. The perpetrator of much of the misinformation – Laurie Tauscher – is speaking in Portland this coming weekend at a legendary Super Saturday event where the hype reaches it fever pitch. Anyone nearby up for going as an interested prospect? Bring a tape recorder.

      • Hi Gavin:

        I like the one warning system. How do you find out the dealers are “offside” with their representations? Does IonWays respond when they receive a complaint.

        Speaking of complaints, it appears that you were “bang on” when you said Enagic wouldn’t respond to Gabe’s inquiry. Actually, they did respond by threatening to suit him.

      • Perhaps everyone who cares about this who lives near Torrance or Orange county (hint hint) should attend Enagic meetings, report the violations to Enagic compliance, and at the same time copy the FTC.

        • Hi Cathy:

          I listened to one telephone conference call hosted by a gentleman called Elly??? and the guest speaker was Laurie Tauscher. The things she talked about should have landed her in a lawsuit from Tyent and IonWays if they had the guts to do something about it. It wouldn’t surprise me if her claims were grounds for her being arrested by legal authorities for practicing medicine without a license. Enagic has GOT TO DO SOMETHING about these false and unsubstantiated claims.

  29. “Hope you are still following this thread, Indigo. Gabe followed your suggestion and had a conversation with Enagic corporate. And unfortunately, they were not as helpful, transparent and forthcoming as you believed they would be. He has posted the conversation recording here and on his blog. They will not provide documentation for the statements you and others have made regarding cancer remission, superiority of the plates, superiority of the water, or pretty much anything except to confirm 8 points x $285 for commission payout on the SD501 …or $2280. That’s 57% going to multiple (up to 8 levels) individuals for each sale, leaving 43% for other bonuses, overhead, and manufacturing cost. So they pay out in commission more than most ionizers retail for. So to say that the compensation plan is not the reason for the high price is simply silly or naive. They could pay out $1280 per machine sold ($160 per point) and cut the price by $1oo0! I would have still been excited to earn that!”-Cathy

    Actually I said something like that before,but Enagic could drop its price by $1000 without abandoning its current marketing plan.But seriously,even I think that Enagic reps are woefully uneducated.Maybe Enagic’s branches in different countries should offer a compulsory training session or something.

    • Hi Si Yuan:

      Enagic could re-engineer its SD501 so that it would cost $400 and work better than it does now. They could then introduce the machine to it MLM system for $1,000 which would allow for $500 profit per unit after expenses. The MLM system could be a 3 (or more) tier system that pays out $500 to the end seller and the other $500 to the up line people who provide the education.

      Enagic would then have a $2000 product which would be more effective and user friendly….would be much easier to sell….. AND….. the dealers wouldn’t have to participate in an ugly distortion of the truth campaign to justify the extra $2,000 in the price of the unit.

      I love the fact that Enagic dealers are spreading the word about the water. However, I’m really angry that Enagic has threatened Gabe Hunninghake with legal action for posting his conversation with their corporate head office. What is Enagic trying to HIDE?

      I understand that Gabe has to provide for his family and doesn’t need the hassle. If Enagic decides to come after me, they have no idea what they will be getting themselves into. The most powerful government in the world was unable to shut down Wikileaks despite their best efforts. Everyone loves a conspiracy story and things can go viral nowdays in a heartbeat.

  30. I HAVE BEEN INVOLVED WITH ELECTRIC WATER IONIZERS FOR THE PAST 4 YEARS. I OWN SEVERAL IONIZERS, INCLUDING AN ENAGIC, AND A LIFE IONIZER, AND HAVE EXAMINED OTHERS SUCH AS THE JUPITER MODEL. ADDITIONALLY, I HAVE TWO OF THE FIRST NON ELECTRIC MODELS INTRODUCED WITHIN THE LAST TWO YEARS. ONE IS THE DREAM TREE PCCS COUNTER TOP SYSTEM AND THE OTHER IS THE LARGER, MORE POWERFUL, PCCS TURBO MODEL.

    AFTER LISTENING TO ALL THE ARGUEING AND THE COMPARISONS OF DIFFERENT UNITS, I MUST ADMIT, THERE ARE MANY LIES AND DECEPTIONS. ALL OF THE MACHINES TESTED ARE CAPABLE OF PRODUCING A DECENT QUALITY OF HIGH PH WATER WITH A STRONG ORP (NEGATIVE CHARGE)

    THE QUESTION IS: HOW LONG WILL ANY OF THESE MACHINES LAST, AND WHAT VOLUME OF WATER WILL BE PRODUCED? I HAVE HAD ALL OF MY MACHINES HOOKED UP IN A SERIES , AND HAVE TESTED THEM EXTENSIVELY. MY CONCLUSION WAS, THAT EVERY MACHINE WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THE SD501, SERVED MERELY AS A RESIDENTIAL APPLIANCE. THE ENAGIC SD501 SHINES AS A MEDICAL WORK HORSE.

    REGARDLESS, WE ARE NOW AT THE END OF AN ERA SUCH THAT ELECTRIC WATER IONIZERS ARE NEARLY A THING OF THE PAST. I HAD THOUGHT THAT THESE MACHINES AND TECHNOLOGY WOULD LAST FOREVER.

    WE HAVE TO TAKE A MOMENT TO THINK OUTSIDE THE REALM OF THE IONIZER. GOD NEVER INTENDED TO HAVE HIS GIFT OF WATER REPLICATED THROUGH THE PROCESS OF ELECTRICUTION. THIS METHOD IS NOT A NATURAL ACT AND IT CERTAINLY OPPOSES NATURE. WATER, AS WE NOW KNOW, HAS MEMORY AND WILL RETURN TO ITS ORIGINAL STATE WITH IN TIME. NOT TO MENTION, THAT WATER DOES NOT FORGET THE PAIN INFLICTED BY THAT PROCESS. REMEMBER: WATER IS A WITNESS. I JOHN 5:8. GOD WANTS MAN TO WORK WITH NATURE NOT AGAINST IT.

    THE FUTURE OF CREATING WATER IN A NATURAL PROCESS IS TO EMPLOY THE TOURMALINE CERAMIC TECHNOLOGY WITH FAR-INFARED. THIS METHOD USES NO ELECTRICITY AND HAS NO ACID DISCHARGE. THIS TECHNOLOGY IS MORE COST EFFECTIVE DUE TO THE FACT THAT NO PRECIOUS METALS ARE NEEDED. MY DREAM FOR SOME TIME NOW, HAS BEEN TO MAKE THIS WATER AFFORDABLE TO EVERYONE. MY ONLY REGRET IS THAT THE HIGH QUALITY ACID WATER WITH A PH BELOW 2.6 CAN NOT BE PRODUCED BY THIS RPOCESS. THE GOOD NEWS IS THAT SOON, ACID WATER WITH A PH OF BELOW 2.6 WILL BE AVAILABLE IN AN OINTMENT. SO THERE WILL BE NO FURTHER NEED FOR AN ELECTRIC MODEL.

    THE WATER DESCRIBED ABOVE IS BEING PRODUCED IN A PRICE RANGE VARING FROM $60.00 TO A HIGH OF $599.00. IN 2011, A NEW TECHNOLOGY IS BEING INTRODUCED IN WHICH OXYGEN AND FREE HYDROGEN ARE ADDED TO ALKALIZED WATER IN A REVOLUTIONARY NEW PROCESS CREATING ALKALINE, ENERGIZED, RESTRUCTERED, OXYGENATED, FREE HYDROGEN, ANTI-OXIDANT, DRINKING WATER.

    DREAM TREE FAMILY’S OWNER, EDMUND CHUN, CREATED THESE PRODUCTS AS A RESULT OF HIS WIFE’S LIFE THREATNING DISEASE. RESPECTFULLY, LARRY OISTAD. 281-960-9494. AGtJ.

    • Hi Larry:

      Thanks for your comments.

      I think the Enagic dealers will agree with your “work horse” comments. I have to agree with your assessment as I know a lot of Enagic dealers that give away a lot of water everyday. The SD501 is truly a workhorse.

      I don’t know if I agree with you about being at the end of an era for electronic water ionizers. I still think that they have an import role to play in the self help segment of the health industry. A great water ionizer with an efficient pre-filter system is a powerful tool.

      I have been studying Hayashi’s work with magnesium to create free hydrogen. His science makes sense and is confirmed by the engineers from the water ionizer industry that that I have spoken with from Asia. Unfortunately, Hayashi is the only person in the world with a device that will measure free hydrogen and he is not sharing. Therefore, we don’t really know if any free hydrogen remains in water produced from electronic water ionizers, or in the water produced from an Antioxidant filter.

      My test results, and the results from others that are testing the Antioxidant Filters are definitely showing some differences between ionized water produced from electonic water ionizers and antioxidant filters. One gentleman in Toronto has noticed that ionized water from an antioxidant filter evaporates much faster than ionized water from an electronic water ionizer. I don’t even know where to begin with that information. Many test results indicate that the negative ORP lasts much longer with with that antioxidant filters. In addition, when you shake up the water vigorously from an electronic water ionizer, the negative ORP drops dramatically while shaking the ionized water from an antioxidant filter only has a nominal effect on the ORP. Once again, I don’t know what to make of these test results, but I’m working on it.

      In regards to Hayashi’s hydrogen sticks that sell for $69 to $89, I’m still not a fan. For people my age, you need 3 sticks and you have to replace them every few weeks. The cost is high, the inconvenience is high, and the water is not getting cleaned. After saying that, for an airplane ride or in a pinch, the sticks can be useful.

      Please keep us posted on the new technology you mentioned. I would be interested in reviewing the process on how oxygen and free hydrongen are added to the water.

      and the gentleman in the USA that is Hayashi’s desciple (his name escapes me for the moment) as I understand what you are talking about in regards to the “natural” aspect of creating ionized water. I agree that the use of ceramics and far infrared is pretty cool, but I believe that magnesium plays a big role. Dr. Hayashi tells us that all we really need is to run water across magnesium to create free hydrogen. His science makes sense

  31. Hi Rob and Gavin,

    You keep mentioning the commercial invoice value of the SD501 at $500 and Gavin, you claim to actually have seen a copy of an invoice at one point, but can’t seem to locate it now.

    I was curious if the value of a good or goods on a commercial invoice is always a 100% accurate representation as to the true value of the good or goods? I knew of several companies here in the U.S. from a prior industry experience who exported products overseas and they always devalued their commercial invoices, so their customers in other countries did not have to pay as high of an import tax or duty. So, in those cases, the commercial invoice value is not a true representation of the actual value of the product.

    So, I guess my question is how do you really know that the $500 is an accurate figure? Mind you, I’m not accusing Enagic of doing anything illegal, I’m just curious as to how you are both convinced of the value of the SD501 at $500. Is it only based on that invoice that you “claim” to have seen? Other than having “seen” a supposed commercial invoice for the SD501, do you guys have any other “proof” that the SD501 is manufactured for $500? Or, are you guys making claims without supportive evidence as you like to accuse Enagic dealers of doing??? Basically, are you “guessing”???

    Juli

    • Hi Juli:

      I have never seen a copy of a commercial invoice for the Enagic SD501. I have seen commercial invoices for several different leading brands of water ionizers.

      You are correct that commercial invoices can be “fudged” like anything else, but the Enagic units have been around for a long time and there have been a large number of units sold in American and elsewhere. It would be very foolish for Enagic to play with that type of number.

      I have seen the SD501’s for sale on Ali Baba a couple of times over the years and they show up at about the $560 range if memory serves me. Yes, Ali Baba can be very unreliable, but it can also be very good as I have used Ali Baba to buy units for testing in the past.

      Trying to ascertain a “real” price in the abscence of irrefutable proof is best left to comparisons of similar known entitites. All the major brands sell for $400 to $500 out of Asia and they all have similar or better/more sophisticated components. If Enagic pays more for their plates, that is their choice, but it is irrelevent. If Enagic chooses to pay more for assembly because Japanese labor is more expensive, that is their choice, but it is irrelevent. The days of Japanese manufacturing superiority are over, and nobody in their right mind would tell you that having one person assemble a complete machine would be more efficient than specialization. Even if Enagic machines are a bit more expensive to build due to choices made by Enagic, it doesn’t explain the $2,300 or more of commissions built into a MLM system on top of the profit contribution of each machine before it is turned over to the MLM system.

      When Enagic can provide actual proof in terms of any form of independent professional testing, I will acknowledge the difference, but I will never believe that the price difference is worth it. My testing in my lab and testing done by many people I have spoken with don’t substantiate the Enagic claims. Even the Enagic head office won’t substantiate the claims.

      After saying all of the above, if an Enagic dealer can convince someone to buy the SD501, I think it is a good thing because the water will help the person.

  32. Hey!

    My parents have built their business around natural health alternatives and a couple years ago, purchased a Kangen for their home. Recently, however they have come across a new company (about 2 months old) called Water Revolution that has created a couple different water purification/alkaline water systems ranging in price between $600-$800. I have a side-by-side comparison of the Kangen and Water Revolution’s system and I am very impressed. I like that the WR’s systems work with municipal water as well as well water and if you have hard water or water that has a foul taste or odor, the filtration systems can handle that as well. Their AlkaPurity stystem, uses reverse osmosis. Also worth mentioning, Water Revolution’s units are made in the United States, don’t need electricity to operate, and come with a limited LIFETIME warranty. I live near Los Angeles, so when I found a great system that doesn’t cost me thousands of dollars, I made the investment for my family’s health. We love our water system and decided to jump on board with the company. The lower price point makes Water Revolution’s product much more accessible to the general public, which in turn makes for a great business opportunity! Let me know if you are interested!

    If you are researching or considering making the switch from tap, bottled, or regular filtered water, I encourage you to add Water Revolution to your research. You can email me and I will be happy to answer any questions you might have. My website is: https://www.water-revolution.com/California

    Living

    • Hi Amber:

      I will ask my web guy to set up a Revolutionizer chat line in the forum section tomorrow. You can use the forum to create discussions and use as an education tool for your team members.

  33. Hey Rob,

    Whatever happened to the article you were going to write about Michael Kinnett???

    Juli

    • Hi Juli:

      Just have other priorities these days…like the arrival of our first grand child.

      • I am an Enagic distributor SERIOUSLY contemplating leaving the company after one sale. I wanted to know the truth about Enagic and I believe I have seen through the seemingly well-intentioned deceit.

        Rob, I AM PASSIONATE about alkaline, ionized water and am VERY dedicated to helping people, which is why I was not afraid to discover the truth, whatever that might be.

        I used Michael Kinett’s power point presentation to justify supporting the Enagic myth. So, it would be a GREAT service to Enagic Distributors if you can refute that particular “tool” where you find it to be untrue.

        Sounds like you have your priorities straight, with your grandchild. And PLEASE get to that Kinett review as soon as you possibly can.

        I DO have to say that I am so discouraged by all the misinformation that I’m not sure I can continue in this business because how can I educate people on something that I’m not sure I understand anymore?

        I certainly DO understand the BS “healthcare” system and that their pharmaceutical “remedies” are as effective as blood-letting. I certainly DO understand the importance of maintaining an alkaline system, that microclustering enables us to be better hydrated and that antioxidant water is the bomb.

        But what I absolutely DO NOT UNDERSTAND is which product to recommend to people and now I am absolutely hesitant to be in the profession. So, my passion that was kindled to educate, is burning low at the moment. Exactly what you HOPED would not happen to an Enagic distributor is precisely what HAS happened to me. And I am a bright light
        for any cause that I support.

        Signed,
        Dim candle burning low

        • Hi Carol:

          Thank you for the brilliant comments. Your honesty is refreshing and inspiring. I gave your comment a checkmark for the “Like”.

          My priorities have been elsewhere the last couple of weeks.

          Could someone please send my a link to the Michael Kinett conference call or presentation….Thanks

          • Can I send you something privately about this? Not on the blog?

          • Hi Carol:

            Of course you can contact me outside of the blog, just like anyone else. You can email me at contact@waterfyi.com

  34. Indigo,
    Are you Lauri Tauscher? I’m pretty sure, based off research/comments she’s made that she is, and I’ve noticed that her name comes up a lot in these posts. In comparison to “Indigo” I find Larry Oistad’s endorsement of Enagic to be much more professional, mature, reasonable and rational.

    Larry is spot on when he says….
    WE HAVE TO TAKE A MOMENT TO THINK OUTSIDE THE REALM OF THE IONIZER. GOD NEVER INTENDED TO HAVE HIS GIFT OF WATER REPLICATED THROUGH THE PROCESS OF ELECTRICUTION. THIS METHOD IS NOT A NATURAL ACT AND IT CERTAINLY OPPOSES NATURE. WATER, AS WE NOW KNOW, HAS MEMORY AND WILL RETURN TO ITS ORIGINAL STATE WITH IN TIME. NOT TO MENTION, THAT WATER DOES NOT FORGET THE PAIN INFLICTED BY THAT PROCESS. REMEMBER: WATER IS A WITNESS. I JOHN 5:8. GOD WANTS MAN TO WORK WITH NATURE NOT AGAINST IT.

    THE FUTURE OF CREATING WATER IN A NATURAL PROCESS IS TO EMPLOY THE TOURMALINE CERAMIC TECHNOLOGY WITH FAR-INFARED. THIS METHOD USES NO ELECTRICITY AND HAS NO ACID DISCHARGE. THIS TECHNOLOGY IS MORE COST EFFECTIVE DUE TO THE FACT THAT NO PRECIOUS METALS ARE NEEDED. MY DREAM FOR SOME TIME NOW, HAS BEEN TO MAKE THIS WATER AFFORDABLE TO EVERYONE. MY ONLY REGRET IS THAT THE HIGH QUALITY ACID WATER WITH A PH BELOW 2.6 CAN NOT BE PRODUCED BY THIS RPOCESS. THE GOOD NEWS IS THAT SOON, ACID WATER WITH A PH OF BELOW 2.6 WILL BE AVAILABLE IN AN OINTMENT. SO THERE WILL BE NO FURTHER NEED FOR AN ELECTRIC MODEL.

    THE WATER DESCRIBED ABOVE IS BEING PRODUCED IN A PRICE RANGE VARING FROM $60.00 TO A HIGH OF $599.00. IN 2011, A NEW TECHNOLOGY IS BEING INTRODUCED IN WHICH OXYGEN AND FREE HYDROGEN ARE ADDED TO ALKALIZED WATER IN A REVOLUTIONARY NEW PROCESS CREATING ALKALINE, ENERGIZED, RESTRUCTERED, OXYGENATED, FREE HYDROGEN, ANTI-OXIDANT, DRINKING WATER.

    … based on my research/opinions I’d put it this way… If you create free hydrogen vis a vis electric ionization you will produce beneficial ORP, etc. type water that will produce immediate benefits, particularly right in the gut where the free hydrogen has an immediate impact on the free radicals in your body. It becomes an immediate detox. Important thing to remember everybody feels good after a detox, because that immediate flushing of toxins out of the body feels very good and your body loves it. But as Enagic knows that benefit over time dissipates. Who cares what a paper cup of water measures in terms of ORP, pH etc. WHAT DOES IT DO IN YOUR BODY? IS THE WATER HELPING TO CREATE THE BUFFER THAT THE BODY RELIES ON NATURALLY, CONSISTENTLY FEND OFF THE ACIDIC SUBSTANCES/TOXINS THAT WILL ALWAYS IN SOME FORM COME INTO OUR BODIES. How do you feel once you stop drinking Kangen water? You feel like crap. You know what else makes you feel really really good, until you abstain …. think along the lines of addictive substances. I believe that when people who are somewhat out of shape, have excess toxins in their body and/or are somewhat obese (like I was) that then is when Kangen water can demonstrate the most significant change towards a positive reaction to the water. But as you continue to drink, and if you’re doing other mandatory steps towards an empowering, holistic healthy body, and as your body becomes more in balance … the body will come to recognize Kangen water as no longer necessary… in fact, will not agree with it. BUT if you continue to eat cheeseburgers, fries and other unhealthy choices your body will then crave that electrically manipulated artificial, immediate high Kangen water. But in such people, at that time in their lifes, there bodies are far more inadequate on much more deeper levels … in terms of the necessary minerals that the body are relies on from water. Water is PRANA, natural, Mother earth energy…. prana IS NOT transmitted vis a vis electricity…. If as Larry and Indigo (Lauri) point out that Enagic are indeed in comparision Medical grade equipment (and they are in my opinion and better machines than their electric counterparts, again just my opinion, sorry Rob/Gabe… I think those other electrical ionizers are pretty cheap..) BUT getting back to Enagic, perhaps in the hospital that’s where they belong…. to/for someone who is severely out of shape and in a state of imbalance within their bodies. As people have been commenting … people first buy the Enagic and they love the benefits, but it’s short term and they find that their body is now saying “okay enough of this band-aid approach to water… give me the real deal” … I am willing to bet that it is those people who have also taken the other positive holistic health steps and their bodies have graduated to a higher level of health. (not trying to compare people, and knock on people whom are out of balance) … BUT if instead you still eat cheeseburgers and do not graduate to a higher level of balanced health.. then you’re going to continue to need/want/find benefit from a short-term band-aid water.

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